This isn't about a specific incident.
Almost every single character I play ends up getting, at one point, attacked by someone I don't know. These attacks are out of the blue from invisible opponents, fully buffed, which I have never even met. During the PvP there's not a single emote. The only talking happens when my PC lies in the ground.
Is that really ok? I know we all want to "win" but couldn't people at least say something like "I will kill you!" or "Drop your weapon!" or "[Draws his weapon menacingly]" so I can at least tell I'm not being griefed and some legitimate thing is going on?
Or am I totally in the wrong here and PvP as well as attacks out of nowhere from people you've never met are an expected and okay part of EfU, part of the danger and intrigue?
Personally these encounters leave me empty. I am much more impressed with a PC who roleplays - who types something - than with one who saves all his words for when I can't do anything anymore. I remember my favorite anecdote I heard second-hand: someone attacked a friend travelling with the Scholar, Aleczumberzeil te Esoterotept. Instead of just mashing all his PvP potions he exclaimed a warning and wrote out an emote, even as he was being wailed on. Then he kicked their ass.
That is a thousand times more interesting, engaging and memorable than wordless PVP encounters with people you never met before who want to force you into a position of submission.
So tell me:
Am I wrong here? Is that what you're supposed to do when you attack / defend? Do you really stop typing at all until the fight is over, switching into arena PVP mode? If so I'll do that from now on. Probably a good idea! I've died countless of times while trying to type emotes/words in the middle of PvP because the enemy does not.
Sometimes stealth is needed. But I agree. A showdown is always more interresting.
I am always typing, which is why I'm always losing. >_>;
not to mention when you prefer to start it up RPing and the guy just buffs up, ignoring you completely.
of course. when the guy is fully buffed he attacks you and finishes your RP.
With the exception of heavily buffed fighters I really don't think anyone else has time to hammer out emotes like that in pvp. Some characters rely a lot more heavily on ambushes and quickly decimating an opponent than others, and a back and forth like that is much more to their detriment because they want to FINISH IT. Now granted, a single word out of them might be nice. But its not always appropriate depending on what the goal of the pvp is. If you're trying to assassinate someone you really 'don't' want to be speaking.
When I try to do the emote and talk thing before attacking someone here, they drink invisibility and run away mid sentence.
Its left me a little disappointed.
I don't think its cool to gank random people from invisibility though!
Sometimes, you need to disable someone to get them to listen to you.
Ha Ha Ha
My personal feelings are as well that normal jumping is fairly dull. Albeit, everyone has done this at times as they wish to get that jump on someone. I do encourage people to risk it and be cool at the danger of being hit back, and face their target, threaten or be clever and put them in a situation where they have no place to easily escape.
Folks are right in one thing. I do not reward pvp, however I will reward good RP where pvp is carried out well and with flair of drama, and where the person still can achieve that "victory" at the risk of staying true to their style.
Depends on the situation. But agreed, being on the subdued side of the gank-squad is usually never very entertaining or fulfilling. I'm sure it can be, but I've yet to experience it.
Being struck down is never really fun. There's no denying it. It's really up to the person behind the screen if they can take even that situation as a twist in the story and enjoy it. The bandit can never make it happy for every "customer".
However, it is the harsh reality of efu and this kind magical world. It's quite brutal and happens.
Point here should be on the integrity of the character. People do not think too much of it, but it is very chaotic and random act, even if you're a thief or bandit, to jump a random person without a word, fully prepared and ready to even kill them if necessary. It is very twisted and out of the norm. Just think about it a bit. It's a game, but these kind things can be thought with real life logic - can you imagine to randomly just bashing someones head in out of the blue without any word or warning? Quite many robbers in movies and tv also do this, threatening and demanding things before they get rough.
If we'd be really strict and rough as well, we probably should be reacting to normal invisi ganks much more as it is with this logic just as well. It is simply an aspect folks forget to take as seriously as it should be. Like killing a person. It is extremely hard thing to do.
Just my personal thoughts on the matter.
Whilst as many have said, sometimes jumping out to whack someone makes sense because for example they have 10 allies there with them and unless you strike first you'll be mashed into the ground like a bug. However to me it is infinitely more fun for the villain and hero to face off and have some dialogue, the bandit to accost his victim and demand some kind of toll or surrender. Though I should note this works both ways, as halfling power has said, sometimes you'll try and make things interesting as the aggressor only to be instantly attacked or have your target sprint off to fetch a bunch of people to gank you.
While being killed doesn't add anything for your character, as they're dead, it does add a sense of dread in other characters.
If it's done tastefully and in a cool way. Just saying, "ah, I'm his enemy and he's low level, I'll slit his throat now!" isn't a very good way to rock.
Remember, this is supposed to be a story, not a deathmatch.
That said, there are definitely times when a wordless jump is warranted.
PVP can only be fun when people leave behind the 'I win' mentality that is often prevalent; otherwise it simply becomes a situation of character survival that borders (as is often, entirely focused..) on metagame that becomes totaly bland and adds very little to story.
PVP should always be a means of enhancing an enmity, as reprisal for in character actions or other interesting, well played in character antics and always should be always handled with style and creative flair. Simply ganking someone that you hardly even know the name of for some personal, or passing glory rarely leads to anything but anticlimactic, blasé gameplay.
True warriors can communicate complex idea's and emotions with only their weapons, and the striking of steel on steel.
(http://library.uoregon.edu/ec/e-asia/imagesa/samurai.jpg)
Idea's such as "I kill you"
I used to say something every time before pvp...now I pick and choose who I say something to. I cannot even count the amount of times I could have wordlessly ganked people I confronted first and they just invis potioned and ran the second I even said "Stop for a moment" or "Hello there *Unsheathes weapon*" So really some times it makes little sense to warn someone if you plan to beat them up and take maybe a couple hundred gold, pat them on the ass and leave them on their way.
The thing is that it's
very easy to run away from someone in PvP, since unlike in real life, it's doesn't take just one great axe blow to the back to nearly kill someone (even if they're an amazing warrior of legend).
I'm not disagreeing with you, Jasede. Wordless PvP is indeed very dull and heavily focused on "winning", but sometimes done out of mechanical necessity. A way around this is to find two or three buddies to play bandit with.
Quote from: ExampleA lone traveler goes to cross the Scars bridge and four people pop out of stealth/invisibility, two on each side. His exits are somewhat blocked and the character is in a situation where he cannot easily escape you. Initiate conversation. PvP if target resists.
If you're alone, litter the area with tangle traps beforehand. As soon as you exit stealth, drink a see invis and put pressure on your poor victim to hand over things immediately, trying to get him to relent out of impulse. Attack him if he stalls.
Players have an
obligation to try and make things as interesting as possible for everyone involved, especially the victim. Let's understand though that if the guy simply drinks an invis and runs away without a word himself, then there's really no conflict, no story, no interaction and no fun for anybody.
I don't remember if it was canzah or caster who had the most interesting werewolf I ever met in EFU in these months I have been playing with you guys.
My interactions with the werewolf were mostly PVPing and I usually lost. Even so, the player managed to make them all pretty interesting and made me really fear the woods.
First of all, I couldn't detct the werewolf (she was using stealth), so the player sent me tells like "you notice the nearby bush to be moving" or "you could swear you heard footsteps behind you" and so on. I was being stalked and I knew it... I had no place to run away. When things got darker, I turned invisible (sorc), but I was encumbered, couldn't run away. So, it was easy for the werewolf see me and stalk me more. It was a really interesting interaction. The werewolf teased me a lot and didn't take anything from me, other than my confidence.
I enjoyed it a lot and I hope to see more of this kind of thing more often.
Simple way of summing this up: Wordless PvP sucks. If someone responds to potential PvP by invising and running, they are themselves doing wordless PvP. After all, 'flight' is the other half of the 'fight' reflex.
Mind you, I think it is important to remember that 'flight' _is_ reflexive and that many people fear ganks so much that running is their first impulse. Rather than saying that people suck, I would state that they need to work on overruling their reflexes. I am not excluding myself from this -- I myself have very BAD reflexes left over from WoW and these have sometimes led me to such memorable RP actions as casting defense spells when I see someone setting me to Hostile. :( (I wonder if there is a way of entirely eliminating the 'X now Dislikes you' message? It is pure meta information and thus only disruptive to the roleplay and mood.)
As to invis ganks, they can be done with class and without. And much of the class depends on two things: 1) whether previous hostility existed between the characters and 2) how post-fight RP is handled. Remember that you are dealing with friends you have just beaten -- the least you can do is to show some respect in the post-fight RP. Ingame, the person you just beat is your enemy. In the real world, he is your friend sitting next to you at the virtual gaming table. Keep that in mind, do you want him to have fun or to feel bad?
~tOH.
The largest problem with making things "Fun" for the one being abused is that so often the instigator is not left with things fun.
Playing a bandit is great when you can find a PC out wandering alone, run in, drop a line or two, then start fighting and give chance.
When a bandit isn't fun is when a PC doesn't emote or RP or anything but simply invis + run + Sending + Searchparty + "IT WAS THIS GUY, HE WAS WEARING A HELM BUT IT WAS TOTALLY HIM BECAUSE WE MET TWICE BEFORE".
If DMs want to start implementing a more fair and balanced Disguise system, you may find yourself with more interactions with PCs. As it stands even saying one word is enough I have seen from interactions for a PC to identify you and a DM to say "Sorry, you don't have enough bluff".
Also remember the story doesn't end just because you got mugged. It's a very IC action to try and round up your friends and begin pursuing bandits in the wilds, work with the Muster as an informant, or a variety of other tools of RP at your disposal that can come from a beating and some theft.
Play along as the victim. Stay subdued or show fear when ambushed in these situations.
I guarantee you, as a bandit style PC-
I am more inclined to help a PC have fun who drops some things and screams "OH GOD DON'T KILL ME" and runs away.
Than if I subdue someone, they spend five minutes running their mouth either IC about "How dead I am", and how they're gonna get all their buddies together, etc.
On EfU:A, I played a particular PC that would walk without invis (not 100% of the time), though near fully buffed, within the central district. 3/4 times people got the jump on me & at those times it built some pretty great conflict.
When the conflict came to a climax between my PC & their own, we would sometimes fight under mutual agreement within the central district. It was quite fun & I would like to point out why it was fun on my part & likely their own.
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Not only was it mutual, but it was a 1v1 between two PCs that had built conflict between each other over a period of time & have exchanged many words toward one another. They were enemies, plain & simple. When we'd fight we'd often times get spectators, but note: spectators. Though at times it makes sense for your buddies to jump in it is most often done so because the players within the vicinity lunge at the chance to "win" in this situation or to avoid risk.
If you apply "real life logic" to this; When one of your buddies after school goes to meet Bully X at the playground, 9/10, unless your other buddies want a romp & stomp to toss the guy to the hospital, it's going to be a game of 1v1 mano-e-mano with the exception of someone intervening just to keep it from going too far.
Can you imagine, if every player, though not at every time, honored something like this? It's far more interesting, far more fun & has a much higher chance of furthering our story if it's an epic fight between two rivals rather than a mob chase or gank. Something to think about, huh?
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Always remember that it's up to you to stir the pot as well as serve it, but always remember that sooner or later you'll be tasting another player's stew & if you've been mixing in foul ingredients in your own they very well may do the same!
Story is the most important & fun part of EfU. Let's keep it that way.
Another note is when you're being a tough guy on the ground and I am obviously an evil person why do you think it would be so illogical for me to kill you? Why should I let you live while you shit talk me about how you're going to get me back and how I'm such and such. I have FDed someone I was going to let go because they sat there shit talking me for 5 minutes as I selectively picked a few things to rob him of and just said fuck it this guy WANTS me to kill him.
I canno't go far from what you guys are saying.
Even when I got a PC of mine that I want killed, the player base hardly will FD them. You guys are really nice ^^
Bottom line is in tight spots, some people are scared to rp because they prefer to win a video game. Shame, hu.
I do see some trying to, but the opposite party is too bent on quickly drinking the appropriate potions or running halfway across the island in full plate carrying the body of a subdued guy. Shame.
I mean when you KD someone, you have a full round to boast over him. When he's paralyzed, entangled, you can move away and gloat, not just enjoy the sneak attack. Sure you're loosing tactical moments, but who cares? Before you start to fight you can rp. When someone's clearly going to mug you but is taking time to rp, it's poor form to just click on your quickslots to get headstart in buffs. Let his speak his piece, at the very least.
Other similar issue: be mindful of what pvp you're in. Most people pulling a greataxe on someone that just punched them is just silly. I've given up brawls on efu.
Does it make IC sense? Sometimes, probably. Does it make the story better? ...
If you just rp when the pvp is over, well, you're missing 2/3 of it.
Try it, when it works out, it's pretty fun. Usually, pvp's only fun is the adrenaline rush it brings. It can be much more, even if it means loosing it more.
Quote from: The Old Hack;322031(I wonder if there is a way of entirely eliminating the 'X now Dislikes you' message? It is pure meta information and thus only disruptive to the roleplay and mood.)
The "/c hostile" command does not show the meta information to the other player. I usually have "/c hostile area" and "/c unhostile all" set to quickslots. Those two plus the new PvP Player Tool make it very easy to manage hostility without giving out too much meta information to others.
We all need to remember there are two sides to the "PvP". There is the aggressor and there is the target. Being the target when "earned" should be expected, now I'm not saying the Gank Squad should assemble, but you should expect to be attacked if you are the Big Bad, the Random Bandit, or even the "Hero". Being a target should be something to be proud of, it means you've done something to earn other players attention.
Now, being a random out of the blue, who the hell are you, and why are you attacking me.. SUCKS. Showing a bit of class as the Bandit goes a long way in my book. Now don't get me wrong, depending on the character, I might attack you before you get the change to mug me, or I might shudder and cry and cower and just give you what ever it is you want so long as you don't hurt me. But, give me a chance to respond to your attempt at mugging me before I'm on the ground without a chance to do a damned thing.
Just my thoughts on the matter. As the aggressor or the target, making it mean something is important.
I agree 100% with sylverdragon. If you decide to be a merciless badass you should face the consequences of people maybe wanting to murder you quickly and quietly without the courtesy of initiating a duel. if you're robbing someone or decide to join a mob in lynching the local necromancer you should show some courtesy.
One of the better PVPs I've been involved with was being stalked by a werewolf at 5th level. We fought, and the werewolf won, but it wasn't a straight up fight where we buffed and went at it. She snapped at me, I hit her and she ran away, I yelled at her to shoo and she snarled back, I magic-missiled her and she charged back in to knock me down.
Instead of being a random gank it turned out to be a fun encounter hopefully for both parties: (1) my PC lived and had a story to tell; (2) hers gained some notoriety. The reason this was successful is because both parties took the time to introduce some rp into the fight and went at a slower pace; and neither took advantage of the fact the other stopped to speak.
For this to work it needs to be mutual. If the wizard chooses to summon some scrubs then stands back to cackle maniacally, the fighter could choose to hammer away at the summons and shout back some insults, rather than charging in to power attack/knockdown because the wizard isn't rattling off hold person straight after.
QuoteOne of the better PVPs I've been involved with was being stalked by a werewolf at 5th level. We fought, and the werewolf won, but it wasn't a straight up fight where we buffed and went at it. She snapped at me, I hit her and she ran away, I yelled at her to shoo and she snarled back, I magic-missiled her and she charged back in to knock me down.
my favorite werewolf aswell...
we should build a shrine for her
I think its a good idea to pay more thought to your PvP in terms of its contribution to story development AND enjoyment on both sides, definitely.
Bandits shouldn't be motivated by an OOC creed of: "I'm going to steal gold so I can buy supplies so that I can steal more gold more effectively." And more about how these interactions add up to expand the narrative - creating notoriety, spreading fear, etc.
In a relatively recent incident, in which my PC was a victim, I could detect it was the intent of the player/s to be able to get away with something without being identified at all, that their justification for including even a little bit of dialogue was a minor consideration of: "saying nothing wouldn't be approvable etiquette." It was a good start to making it flavourful and I am sure there was a decent amount of preparation and plotting to see the heist undertaken but it was the base minimum. I know the risks were surely great for those involved as well, but the 'need to win' mentality was definitely still a factor there.
It is still a two way interaction of course, the victim in any encounter should always maintain a cool head OOC no matter what and I can understand not everyone being comfortable with that, in which case the reflex of 'invis + run' may trigger as if your life is being threatened flight is indeed a justified and instinctual reaction. To outright demand nobody does this, seems folly - as there may be good reason for it IC, especially as there are assassins within the game world who will kill a PC if that is their contract.
It is difficult to override instinct and it is most definitely a skill to be able to remain calm in heated situations or be able to retain the best of your thinking capacity in a heightened emotional state (anger, fear, frustration and other emotions which definitely can be elicited through the game and more specifically PvP). A skill which you could well practice mastery of in the virtual world, if you so wish.
Tl/DR:
At the end of the day: just try to be more thoughtful about the experience you are creating and its contribution to the narrative rather than the desire for mechanical advantage or gain through virtual loot / currency; whether this means not looting to a crippling degree or choosing to spare a life rather than take it. The onus for this falls upon the initiator/victor of any PvP but the opposing side is just as responsible in making it a fair experience; whether that means not sending OOC tells of rage, or playing your character fairly IC as versus refusing to roleplay at all.
I'm disinclined to give examples of what not to do, as this one seems trite and grossly exaggerated and may indeed be IC for some PCs who have a deathwish: but perhaps not scream and threaten death upon the other PC, while you are at their mercy? It destroys the value of victory, I imagine, and generally comes off as OOC player ego rather than something a real person would do if their life was threatened.
While it's more enjoyable to have your character end as the result of a dramatic showdown, the invisible gank does have its place on EfU. I've been the victim of such tactics many times, and also employed them twice. I would say it's best to exercise caution when deciding to employ the "invis-gank" technique, if only because it's so rarely the most stylish choice.
My favorite uses of it are in situations where the perpetrator (let us refer to this character as the "gankist"):
A: Does not intend to kill.
B: Is absurdly outmatched (usually aiming for a comedic defeat after the initial panic of those surrounding their target).
C: Legitimately deserves to destroy their victim in such a ruthless manner, preferably in public.
In general, it's safest to assume you do not belong to category C.
Always keep the story in mind. A technique commonly employed by modern authors is the "Try-Fail Sequence." The idea is that, on their way to accomplishing a task, a protagonist should fail at least twice before succeeding. For the purposes of EfU, this isn't always going to be the case. Some goals, such as successfully defeating a DM quest antagonist, or obtaining a plot-related item, might be accomplished on the first attempt. Others, such as taking down a long-standing NPC villain or building something new in the setting, will requiring an on-going struggle, replete with all manner of setbacks and even the good chance that you'll never succeed. There are many reasons for this, but the most important has always been to preserve the significance of accomplishments.
How this relates to PVP is this: you ought to go about things in a way that promotes this kind of engaging character arc. Overcoming obstacles doesn't always mean removing them. I could provide a few specific examples of how to resolve inter-character conflicts in more interesting ways than "I go invisible, take your life and then your stuff, then make a forum post about it," but I think the players here have healthy enough imaginations to conjure up some excellent scenarios on their own.
If this post seems long-winded and meandering, that's because it is. For purposes of keeping the story interesting, variety is essential, and many approaches to any given issue can become valid over time.
QuoteB: Is absurdly outmatched (usually aiming for a comedic defeat after the initial panic of those surrounding their target).
Brings back memories of the time I tried to invis-gank Agneodaniach. It took him a moment to realize he was under attack and I was already subdued by one of his summons. :P
Sometimes it needs to happen. Generally wordless PvP happens because your character has earned this sort of attack through his actions in game.
Also, try playing a bandit PC. Walk up to a mob of travellers and tell them to pay up. I doubt they'll give you much roleplay in response, but can guarantee they will immediately chug potions and try to beat you up. Yet another case of wordless PvP.
Long story short, roll with the punches. Sometimes, as the famous phrase goes, shit happens.
Quote from: wcsherry;322275Also, try playing a bandit PC. Walk up to a mob of travellers and tell them to pay up. I doubt they'll give you much roleplay in response
Really? I did that several times with Turg the Corrupt and encountered largely funny and considered RP every time. *scratches head* The good RP is out there if you fish for it. Maybe it is partly about encouraging it rather than just shrugging and believing it isn't there.
Well, to be fair, YMMV, based on quite a few factors. What works for Turg the Corrupt may not be the case for other characters for varying reasons.
Quote from: The Old Hack;322287Really? I did that several times with Turg the Corrupt and encountered largely funny and considered RP every time. *scratches head* The good RP is out there if you fish for it. Maybe it is partly about encouraging it rather than just shrugging and believing it isn't there.
Hehehe. I do remember meeting that one, I honestly thought it was one of those bounty NPCs too. And then hearing about how he saved an elf from being mugged, which resulted in him appearing as the 'good guy.'
Strictly speaking I don't think an assassin should take the courtesy to say hello.
Granted my favorite work in my failed attempts at assassins was Blackout + Corpse-steal, sometimes the RP is what leads up to the demise as many have said so far.
While it's fun to think about being beat down, dragged across ymph, waking up in a sadistic lair, and ritually sacrificed...Assassins leaping from the shadows to slit your throat is pretty much sticking true to your character. Wordless is sometimes warranted.
Sometimes the IC situation doesn't allow gloating, interrogation, or dallying about. Usually most PvP is followed by a large squad potentially of others seconds away from coming to cut you down.
Not saying every PvP should be "LOL DAI", but a little courtesy goes a long way.
And typically it's the aggressors that are shown the least courtesy.
TOH -
Of course, everyone reacts differently to different scenarios. This does not mean either case is right or wrong. How we handle individual interactions between PC's is up to us, and ultimately a judgement call everyone is welcome to make on their own.
My example was meant to illustrate that wordless roleplay works both ways - between hunter and hunted. As you mentioned, there are likely other examples where things work differently, I am just working with my personal experiences, and those that I've seen in game on the client as well.
You are free to do as you please in game. Just remember, an assault from invisibility or stealth is a valid tactic as long as players are not breaking any rules. The tactic is neither 'lame' nor unsportsman-like, but should be used on a case-by-case basis.
Quote from: Random_White_Guy;322297And typically it's the aggressors that are shown the least courtesy.
Definitely. It just seems hard wired into people though, and for the right reasons in terms of real life. Would you really want a murderer on the loose?
Some concessions for story can be made, but it comes back to the main point in the rest of the quoted post. Which is to say, if the situation is right the means can be justified.
Assassin PCs should expect they will be killed if they fail and it is their intention to kill. Everyone is going to assume that a wordless invis-ganks represent the intent to kill. You can always apply your creativity as well, I think we all know of the method of earning a PC's trust and luring them out somewhere dark and quiet by now. It's a rite on EFU, I dare say, you've not played EFU until you've been murdered that way.
Quote from: Aethereal;322296Hehehe. I do remember meeting that one, I honestly thought it was one of those bounty NPCs too. And then hearing about how he saved an elf from being mugged, which resulted in him appearing as the 'good guy.'
You take that back! I wasn't saving the elf, I was mugging the mugger! >.>
As to my earlier response, I'd like to apologise; I suspect I came across a little rudely and all I wanted to say was that you do meet good RP as well and that I try to stay focused on that. (It may also be a matter of approach. I never actually had Turg try to ambush a whole crowd of people, he was too cowardly for that -- two people at a time was the most he felt like attempting.)
QuoteStrictly speaking I don't think an assassin should take the courtesy to say hello.
maybe not, but I guess that a sociopath that seems to delight themselves about creating panic into their victim would be quite interesting.
like the guy that sends letters and stalks his prey for days before finishing them.
... not because they are professionals, but because they are maniacs!
The issue I have with invis ganking, and the reason I consider it unfair and unsportsmanlike, is that there is always, and let me stress always, a more enjoyable, creative, fair, imaginative alternative.
NWN is based on shared storytelling. We all add a piece of a story we all contribute to create. Invis ganking, on the other hand, has little interest in what the other player is experiencing. I have been told RP and story developments can come from invis ganking, but I do not agree. I cannot imagine a single instance where such RP and story developments couldn't be obtain through more enjoyable means, that ends up adding even more to the rivalry being told. The biggest mistake a NWN player can do is to figure out the story he wants to tell and believe that it will happen as he has imagined it. What makes NWN spectacular is that the outcome is the result of all of us influencing each other's story. But anyone performing an invis gank is not interested in letting the other player have his own tale entwined with his. Invis gank is the most efficient way to obtain the story development one desires, without caring of what the opposing part can offer to the table. You give up roleplay, and the chance to further tell your rivalry (because the moment of the confrontation is the peak of a rivalry), in order to aim for "the win". Yes you will roleplay after that, yes you will develop the story after that, but at your own conditions, from a position of strength that you have used invis ganking to obtain. You are not sharing storytelling anymore. You are forcing your storytelling on someone else. That is why not killing someone after an invis gank doesn't make it any more right. The idea behind the invis gank is wrong, because it is a shortcut to an outcome we desire, no matter what our fellow players add to the table. What this outcome eventually is, doesn't in any way excuse what we have done.
The fact our fellow players may not show us the same kind of consideration we are reserving them is also no solid ground to justify an invis ganking. Only by setting the bar high, can one improve. The bandit one is again a good example. There are hundreds of ways to handle a mugging or an ambush, that can be enormously more enjoyable. I'll write one, because it involves that kind of thinking outside the box, past the mechanic nwn offers us, that I find makes our game epic.
Imagine, instead of just jumping on a group from invisibility, to follow said group unseen. Imagine to listen to their conversations, understand the relationships between them. If you really want to make it more than just a mugging, if you want to enjoy it and let your targets enjoy it too, you could follow these guys for a while, or pay someone to gather data for you. Until you eventually understand the people in the group, until you find out who is the weakest link, that element the others greatly care about. And again, instead if jumping on them fully buffed and wtfpwn them, you sneak up to your chosen target, appear, and put a knife at his/her throat.
Two things can happen:
1) Your fellow players understand to look past the game mechanics, and portray the fantasy world in their minds, and that means they play along. You threaten them, hinting at private informations that you should not be privy to. You make them understand you know how important the person under your dagger is. You tell them of that time one of them almost sacrificed his life to save your target. You have doubt sneak into their minds, you toy with them, and the life in your hands, that they so much care about. And then you ask for money. But really, you probably won't, because I'm sure at this stage there will be something much more interesting you want from them. This does tell a rivalry (instead of an invis ganking that adds nothing), because every single character can react to this event. How will this influence the personality and goals of your target? Will he be afraid of you, avoid any confrontation with you at any cost, show signs of paranoia, afraid that someone else may threaten his life in the same way? Or will he come at you with all his might, afraid but willing to take his revenge, struggling to remain strong and not willing to let such experience influence his life? And how will those around him react? How will they advice him? And how will they react themselves? Will they understand that someone has been gathering data on them? But who? How can they find him out? A trap? Or finding someone to spy whoever may be spying on you? How many awesome sessions of roleplay can come from such a simple encounter? How much depth can characters display when faced with these experiences?
2) Your fellow players know that you cannot really harm anyone, so they decide to buff up, not acknowledge the situation they are in (past the mechanic of nwn) and kick the hell out of you. GG.
But should this happen, who is really to blame? Who should reconsider his gamestyle?
Or you could invis gank them, and miss out on point 1) wonderful opportunities. You probably would have more chances to win. But in truth, you would have lost.
(Before anyone says it, this goes both way. We all must be able to imagine this world with our creativity and show fairness to our fellow players. So, in my example, you should realistically choose your target with wisdom and consideration)
I've seen people try things like the above. It near always results with the targets buffing up and beating down the bandit. The only hostage sorts of situations I've ever seen work are when the hostage isn't present, and even then it's rare.
The thing is, you simply can't ignore the mechanics of the situation, players will always measure their chances by them because this is still a computer game. While this might not always be an ideal truth, it's still what the truth is and as players people need to enact their schemes within the realms of what will realistically occur. Anything else will just lead to unrealistic expectations and much frustration.
People always seem to stress over bandits, or other similar sorts of violent PCs, but the EfU truth is as follows. The PCs in the most danger aren't those likely to be victims, it's those who are the aggressors. Bandit PCs are most often killed long before they FD anyone, they get set upon by much greater numbers for a few muggings, dragged to town and executed by whatever law is in place. The players involved in the warband don't ever consider that they're taking part in the FD of a PC who's never killed anyone. They feel strength and safety in numbers, and would likely be very upset if their aggressive reactionary behavior resulted in their PCs getting FDed in return for it.
This is why the players of bandit PCs take precautions for the sake of being bandits. When they don't they wind up dead...and fast. If we want to see banditry as a part of EfU then we as players need to accept the reality of how it works, and allow the story to develop from both sides of the equation. But in my experience, the most stylish side of this near always falls on the side of the bandit, and yet the bandit is the one who most often gets stressed about and worried over as being somehow just out to "win."
Quote from: granny;322248my favorite werewolf aswell...
we should build a shrine for her
Died too soon :(
xs3, I love you, marry me!
even most of the scenaries you pictured not being possible in many situations, I love when they are.
let's concept a couple of enemies to hate each others until the end of the times? ^^
btw, going in what gutter is saying... I would love to see things being softened towards the bandits. we could have some jails, less executions and more ways to spread bandity around EFU. you guys are too good into safeguarding law and destroying everything that is evil that is not a NPC.
... oh, only now I realised that EFU is like the soviet union from the joke. everything is upside down. in soviet efu the good guy is mecyless and the bad guy spares your life.
Bit of a chicken or egg conundrum.
Fun RP during PvP requires trust in your opponent's sportsmanship. But trust in your opponent's sportsmanship requires RP during PvP.
I say break the cycle and don't be afraid to be more mechanically vulnerable to play a more convincing aggressor or (would-be) victim.
Good roleplay can only occur if you trust your fellow players enough to give them a chance to do it. In that regard, trust is vital and therefore I personally prefer to err on the side of trust. Unfortunately I am not flawless; if someone screws me over in spite of that trust I no longer feel very much motivated to show that particular character much more trust. :/
I must respectfully disagree with XS3. The invis gank is not always bad. For one thing, it adds tension and caution to play when you know it can happen, for another, when used correctly it can be a splendid way to escalate tensions between characters. Oh, and for a third -- the satisfaction of managing to turn the tables on an ambusher is ENORMOUS. I have only rarely done this but it has happened for me a couple times or three.
One of the times I was invis ganked and subsequently killed made me extremely mad when it happened but in retrospect I feel that it was so well done that it has actually added to my enjoyment of the server. This was because it was done respectfully (though at the time I was green enough to not appreciate it), because it added to the risk factor of my play, and not least because it did add to server roleplay! This was a major villain at the time and many characters were angered by my character's death.
Most of all, the response was realistic and done in consequence to ingame and forum roleplay. My character had publicly and not so publicly defied this villain and the response was not incommensurate with the involved RP. Lastly, it was a SINGLE ganker who could have been spotted if I had had See Invis ready (I didn't, at the time I was like level 5 from massive level loss and it had run out when it happened.) The attack took guts and gall and was done in the middle of a crowd of PCs and NPCs; had the attacker slipped up, he would have died.
Of course there is bad invis ganking. There is bad roleplay of all sorts! But condemning invis ganking wholesale is to me akin to condemning all quiet roleplaying in town as 'stagnant and boring' or 'sitting around talking about the weather.' Quiet town roleplaying is often very satisfying for me and on several occasions I have seen such 'quiet roleplaying' result in alliances shifting and fates altered. The same goes for good invis ganks.
~tOH.
Not all attacks from 'unseen', is a Gank. Let's set that straight.
A Gank (in my mind) is when a player or group of players OOC'ly plan the 'hit'.
A random attack from 'unseen' is just that. I wish more people would see the difference here.
A Gank is NEVER a good thing, as it is an OOC action, it can be done in stealth, invis, or just walking up and hitting the person that is the target.
At least this is how I see them in my mind.
I think the part in the OP that is missing is :
Quoteattacked by someone I don't know. These attacks are out of the blue from invisible opponents, fully buffed, which I have never even met. During the PvP there's not a single emote. The only talking happens when my PC lies in the ground.
I get that Bandit PC's exist. I get that they put themselves at great risk to play a Bandit. I get that what ever their reason behind the Bandit is usually well thought out. But, you know going in just what it is you are facing. You get caught you get dead. But, does that make it OK to just no RP attack anyone you see?
By doing that you are not giving the others a chance to respond, and I'd bet there are a few that would respond in the Bandits favor. I've had many characters that would have just handed over what ever it was they wanted.. but instead we have to go through this dance of .. you use what you have.. I try to use what I have. Then you take what you think you deserve because of what "I made you use".
I'm the first one to admit that I am mechanically challenged. I have never won a PvP, and most players know this. There have even been times that I was directly targeted for this reason... they knew they could win. (Yes I was told this OOC'ly.. no I will not bring up names) Trust me, it's loads of fun being the loot monkey for those who are Mechanically superior. (feel the sarcasm)
But, if you don't give me a chance to play my character, or to react other than "lays on the ground bleeding".. I can almost guarantee that I will go out of my way to avoid you from then on. Is it wrong? Maybe. Could I be missing out on some really great characters.. yup. Guess it's just something I'll have to live with though.
I agree there are times for the unseen attack. But for me, there is never a reason to forgo RP. This is a Roleplay server after all, I want just the smash and grab, I'll play WoW.
You know what I like the most about everything in this thread?
The discussion. We talk, we try to understand each others. We care about it. And we work for making it better.
That's why I am with you, EFU.
I have yet to see my excuse so I'll toss it in the hat...
Sometimes it isn't always about Wordless RP/PvP. Sometimes it's about how fast and well peeps type. I've actually been in a PvP where the mugger made an attempt at RP by saying "Entertain me or pay me 200 gold!" before I thought of and could type a response, he said "Not fast enough!" and attacked. Though he left little time to respond (maybe on purpose), it still doesn't mean I wasn't making an attempt as I was fighting him with half a line of text that never got completed or sent.
I've seen players who sit and play bejeweled and other games while waiting for replies to RP because they can type fast and the player they are talking to types slowly. Sometimes it's simply a matter of typing ability and has nothing to do with intentional wordless PvP. Though the initial attack may be wordless PvP (for whatever reason).
Escape From The Underdark: Where We Care
By far, the best PVP situation I was ever involved in was when another PC and I went a good ways out from the zig to a QA. At the time we did not know we were being followed. We were ganked by two other disguised PC's on our way back, and beaten down. Not sure if they were even invisible or we were just caught off guard, but both of them were extremely classy throughout the ordeal. Their sole reason for mugging us was to take some keys that we had, to be used against us later, thus setting up a situation which we might be more prepared for.
Also, though the PVP started off with gank, there was plenty of RP after it started.