I've been considering BO mode and the way it has been used. As some of you may know I have certain issues with it but I have decided that rather than rage about it I would try to make some constructive suggestions instead.
First off, when you BO a captive and drag them off, consider whether it is really necessary to keep them BOed during transport. Many players are quite amenable to cooperating with their captors, especially if it is made clear that this is a courtesy alternative to continued BOing. That way the captive is reinserted in the roleplay and the flow of action faster, which will in most cases be appreciated, I am sure. The BO room is just not that much fun to be in.
Next, if you do decide that continued BO is necessary here, it might not be a bad idea to warn the captive of this in a Tell. Explain that you are sorry but that it may be a while before you are ready to deal with a conscious captive, say that it will be OK if they want to go AFK for a little while, possibly give them a time window they should feel free to do other stuff in so they won't have to just sit and wait. (EQ actually did apologise to me for taking so long when he did this a few day ago and it is not his fault that I was in no mood to appreciate it at the time. Having calmed down since I have decided that this was actually courteous and kind of him and that I should have appreciated it more. My apologies to EQ because I didn't.)
Short version: Being on the receiving end of multiple BOs in a row kinda sucks. Consider if it is actually necessary before doing it to someone. And if you decide it is, maybe you should tell the captive so and offer them the chance to go relax doing other stuff instead of just sitting and waiting through multiple depressing bonks on the head.
Cheers,
~tOH.
While some points I agree on-
To be honest in a lot of ways I feel blackout mode is a useful but necessary evil. While it is often great to do the [points knife in back] "March" approach this often leaves things up to interpretation for PCs and DMs on how matters may play out. An unconcious person cannot escape if you are ambushed as easily as a concious figure is.
Consider as well that NPCs don't care if someone is at 100 or 1 HP. If an Orc NPC is out hunting and he comes across the man you're marching that guy is at a huge disadvantage. To buff would be seen as escape attempt most likely but if he's killed by a stray arrow it's game over and you're SOL on both ends.
That being said- Moving a PC from a non PC area during PvP into an NPC area via Blackout mode I think should be seriously frowned upon. This creates both impossible chance to recover a PC as no DM may be around and just an overall "Well fuck, just kill me now" feeling.
Quote from: Random_White_Guy;326919That being said- Moving a PC from a non PC area during PvP into an NPC area via Blackout mode I think should be seriously frowned upon. This creates both impossible chance to recover a PC as no DM may be around and just an overall "Well fuck, just kill me now" feeling.
This last point is a very good one, and one I feel could do with some manner of addressing. If no DM is on a BO'd PC could easily be moved to an NPC area such as by Muskroots Tower and therefore be beyond rescue, despite PvP which might still be ongoing just in the Crossroads (using these areas as examples.)
Here's part of the problem that BO mode solves:
Kidnapping a subdued PC is impossible. At best, you can have them stand up and you can frog-march them, but that assumes you're in absolutely no danger the entire way, which isn't common.
That means that a kidnapping would require FD in order to let you grab their body.
BO serves a very valuable purpose of not making FD necessary for kidnapping.
If you dislike being blacked out, realize that the only salable alternative to tote you around is FD.
That said, it might not be a bad idea to give the person a few moments of awakeness before you roleplay bonking them out again.
Furthermore, people seem to enjoy healing subdued players out of the blue as "neutral" parties. This effectively removes the danger to that subdued person and forces the aggressor to be put on their heels almost instantly as they would both need to subdue the target(s) AGAIN while possibly fending off new attackers instead of simply running off with the body enduring the strength requirements needed.
It should be noted that using blackout to, say, make a player unkillable, is an abuse and violates the rules. And if a neutral party comes up and starts healing a prisoner, that's fine - but that neutral party is no longer a neutral party now.
I'd just like to point out that every single time I remember having subdued someone and tried to get them to march voluntarily, even going so far as to literally swing a whip at their back, they have gone as slow as humanly possible, especially when I'm in situations where a rescue attempt may be underway.
My advice is to give people a single chance to walk of their own free will if the situation allows for such, and if they don't do as you ask and continue resisting despite being subdued, to BO them and keep them BO'd until they are transported to wherever you planned on taking them.
This is complicated, as all PvP on an RP-heavy server like this is bound to be.
For what it's worth, I will Never choose to instantly FD someone unless there is literally no other way to accomplish my goal. I will Never resist somebody who has Subdued me until I get a DMs okay to do so. I will also most likely use Blackout because it is so incredibly useful. Sorry if you hate black screens.
I think in its current state, BO mode does more good than it does harm. I was once pretty strongly in your court on this issue, TOH. But now that a lot of the bugs in the system that I kept getting hammered with seem to have been solved and BO no longer forces you to lose your pack, I feel like it helps keep things flowing more often than not. The fact is, in a high-risk situation, you don't want to have to waste time worrying about a subdued prisoner with reduced movement speed and AC, especially if they want to slow you down further by stopping every few seconds to emote some begrudging thing about how they're going to get you back this way or that. There can be annoyingly lame abuses of the system, but generally you can have confidence in the fact that things are going to be handled with some tact.
It also might not be a bad idea to send them a quick tell in IRC, saying something like "We've blacked out your character and will likely let him/her come to in 15 minutes or so".
Thank you for all the feedback. I will say this: someone dragging their feet is begging for another BO and I would never frown on it in that situation. As to the wild animal thing, that one is very real and I respect that one, too. In the latter case, explaining to the victim that "We have to keep you BOed because this area is full of sandworms/vein vines/Agonies of the Hunt" might not be out of place, either.
Maybe the best thing to do is, when you have to keep someone BOed for whatever reason, try to explain it to them and apologise for the wait/tell them the expected time they will be back in play/both.
I was introduced to the courteous tell as soon as you're BO'd by Caddies. It does help to calm people down, especially if it's a BO they weren't expecting.
To be honest. If you drag someone along you should use BO imo. After all you drag him. Expecting a person who was just subdued to walk alongside you in normal speed is stupid. The guy just took a heavy beating and wont be able to walk as any other. So the strength you need to drag him along should be represented in some manner, BO and actually carrying the body does that fine.
Of course its a boring black room, but thats the way of being knocked out. You wont be there to see and hear everything around you. And in my oppinion thats a good thing. People often enough seem to be super aware of everyone who attacked them and can identify everyone just by the floating red name above their heads. Its boring, but its the way of things.
The only problem I have with BO are the bug problems we had for a while. I think those are solved however. Not sure on that one though.
Quote from: Big Orc Man;326937It also might not be a bad idea to send them a quick tell in IRC, saying something like "We've blacked out your character and will likely let him/her come to in 15 minutes or so".
This is a fine solution., gives the BO character a timeframe, do do anything else needed, rather then staring at a black screen wondering wtf? ...also, not sure if it is possible, but a quest was ran in the sewers where folks could watch the action taking place in another area..perhaps this third party view is a possible idea, so you can watch, just not participate..of course all the actions info seen would be OOC stuff for the watcher, and ic they would not know it, but would make the time spent blacked out so much less of a immersion break/drag for the victim. No idea if that is a scripting nightmare or even possible tho.
Quote from: Big Orc Man;326928It should be noted that using blackout to, say, make a player unkillable, is an abuse and violates the rules.
This is something I have been thinking about: the hostage exchange situation or the prisoner snatch situation. I have seen players perform rescues by running up to a prisoner, BOing him and then picking him up. I am not sure I am completely fine with that because if my PC is guarding a captive with a blade at their back, the BO effectively just made them unkillable. The ability to in one blow take away the threat of killing the hostage seems a little bit... hyperefficient?
This is obviously situational. I have seen it done in a just-post-combat situation where nobody was keeping that close an eye on the subdued characters and I considered it a fair cop then. On the other hand, I have also seen it done while I was standing right next to a kneeling captive with FD mode on, ready to kill the hostage, and that made me feel kind of cheated.
QuoteAnd if a neutral party comes up and starts healing a prisoner, that's fine - but that neutral party is no longer a neutral party now.
This is important to remember, I feel. I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone on Ymph has actually signed on to the Convention of Geneva. If you see someone downed in combat guarded by someone else, you have just chosen to become a combatant if you start to heal the victim. And as such, you should probably flag yourself hostile to the guard first. (As was earlier stated, this is perfectly fine! I can actually see a fanatic Ilmateri come in with healing blazing in defiance of the combatants, declaiming that they have divine sanction to help those in need regardless of what any mortal authority may demand.)
As an alternative to that, ask for permission to heal the downed victim. If the guard doesn't mind, you are on safer ground.
~tOH.
My opinion is that blackout mode is ridiculously necessary to this server, and a much preferable alternative to FD when a prisoner isn't walking, as well as a useful mechanic when capturing one person among many aggressors.
If you ever witness someone using Blackout mode to render someone invincible (such as for a hostage rescue), please report it to us.
That is cheating. There is no reason why a hostage at knifepoint would become invincible when you bravely kick their lights out.
It seems as if Blackout should always be used when summons are involved.
It will unsummon the way killing will, won't it?
Summons shouldn't be fighting on when their summoner is subdued. Also a summoner shouldn't have to worry about trying to force their summon to stop pounding on subdued targets while ignoring enemies that are still actually threats.
With blackout those things wouldn't be an issue anymore, unless I am wrong about how it works in relation to summons.
I've subdued someone and had their summons and buffs go away when it happened. I don't know about companions or familiars but they're typically not as strong in combat.