Just a simple question...
Every time I think I'm out, it pulls me back in.
FYI the point of that area is that it's a maze-like, confusing, complicated area that's easy to get lost in. If you don't like it, you don't have to go there. Plenty of characters do and it's cool when they learn the Forest and are able to navigate easily and see the many different lore hints and scripted features there.
Pretty much every time I enter this area it takes me 2 hours to get through it, I still cant remember how I do it! Then again, it is the forgotten forest!
The forgotten forest area has always been one of the more interesting corners of the server from a mechanics/maze perspective. It is by no means impossible to escape from, however I think a quest or more interesting features in that area would be cool as I have yet to figure out a really good reason to go there or take other PCs there other than exploration XP.
Then you haven't made it all the way through? It's worth noting the end is different nearly every time, not to spoil too much.
I agree there's a ton of neat stuff inside of it. The maze feel gives it an interesting touch. The problem comes in that there's one spot that unless you /KNOW/ the right series of maneuvers to make in the right sequence, you end up in an endless loop maze. It's not necessarily the getting in and exploring that's the issue .... it's the trying to get out after you've already spent several hours inside of it exploring.
Quote from: Howland;331645If you don't like it, you don't have to go there.
Not a problem, easy fix. I will just take Howlands advice and OOCly make IC excuses to not go in there with any of my PC's. It doesn't matter what the rhyme or reason is for that map, it's not worth hours of my IG time doing nothing but looping around and getting frustrated.
You can always seek a tracker/ranger IG to help you navigate it. (Or just someone who is familiar with it)
I personally love it as is. It's a unique aspect of EfU and would be a shame to change.
I like it too. Personally, I fear entering there and getting lost on most of my characters, so it makes it all feel very 'real'.
Well ... if you've got the specific combo for that one section memorized in the exact steps ... then cool. But when there aren't said people around (which is something you'd have to know OOCly) ... that one specific spot can ruin a very interesting area part of the server. The forest in and of itself is quite cool. It's that one spot that is horrid.
[shrugs] But if you've OOCly memorized it so that all your PCs have the secret key to getting out, cool.
The whole concept of that area, is the feeling of lost within the forest. Not knowing where you are, how to get out, passing the same place over and over.
Thats what makes it an interesting spot, yes there is interesting information inside that area, but we also have a way to complete skip out that area entirely. Taking that into consideration I think that if you dont know the route (like myself) and dont want to get lost, then hire a guide, its an IC thing to do.
There's not a lot of reasons any PC really HAS to go there. So why is it a big deal if it's confusing, since that is kind of the entire point of the area?
I don't have it memorised, though I've been through there with a number of PCs. Sometimes I get lost, sometimes I don't.
If it's that much of a problem all I can suggest is spending some time experimenting and writing down the route so you don't get frustated OOCly. It's not ideal, but if it avoids rage then it's probably for the best.
Quote from: RuinedDesires;331659Thats what makes it an interesting spot, yes there is interesting information inside that area, but we also have a way to complete skip out that area entirely.
Mostly only usable by one group. If you don't have the key for those spots (or the death wish for the other spot), they're not available.
Y'all are missing the point that a very intriguing part of the server is going to be overlooked because of one spot within it. And knowing that one spot is an OOC thing. Memorization pure and simple.
And being told "don't go there then" when we've repeatedly heard how much of the server doesn't get seen by players is rather self-defeating.
It's nothing to do with OOC memorization. It's something that takes a little time to figure out, but not much. Certainly some people might remember from previous characters, but many don't, and can just experiment a few times.
And, as others have mentioned, it's a perfectly fine IC solution to simply hire someone who knows IC how to get through - the normal way.
I'm sorry but I don't see the problem.
Of course not all areas should be easy to get to, it just happens that this particular challenge is not based off of dangerous monsters but rather a relatively simple puzzle.
I have forgotten the way through and rediscovered it three times. It is a very cool thing for mist-themed characters, though.
I love it. Don't change a thing.
For the record, I've been there with people that claimed to know the way and still gotten separated from them transitioning through the same place they did and ending up in a place they were not. So I'm not sure what anybody is talking about when they say go with a ranger or somebody that knows the way. It doesn't help when you transition to differing spots.
I only went in there solo because there was only a half dozen players IG at the time and figured I could see the sights and say IG/IC that my PC was really there. Part of my frustration is I spent an hour in there watching another half dozen log in and listening to at least three sendings I'd have loved to get to but couldn't because I was stuck there.
If I was the only player that has logged off because of it, says one thing. The fact that more than one player has logged off (or spent hours of time IG there) says to me it needs to be addressed.
Quote from: Cerberus;331668For the record, I've been there with people that claimed to know the way and still gotten separated from them transitioning through the same place they did and ending up in a place they were not. So I'm not sure what anybody is talking about when they say go with a ranger or somebody that knows the way. It doesn't help when you transition to differing spots.
It doesn't work like that. If you got left behind by people it's because they didn't wait for you, simple as that. In the forest the leader needs to take it slow and count their ducks. If they don't...well...people wind up all over the woods.
It really is not that difficult place. It is IC matter to deal with one way or another, and if players are sometimes worse than their character in directions, no harm in playing that aspect still.
There are several buggy spots on the map that you'll transition funny. I've ended up in an entirely different section of a map from the rest of my party. So it does happen. And I've lost count of the number of times people get left behind from Point A to Point B, even without going through tranisitons.
I've also been told that people have it mapped out and written down exactly what steps to take, so I'm not pulling it out of my ass.
Apparently getting stuck in an infinite loop for over an hour is what ... means you're stupid?
But ... I'm not going to fuss about it anymore. [shrugs] I'll just stay away ... even if it means getting chastised for not exploring the server, or missing out on some key plot point that's dumped in there.
I can honestly say you can get to it with simple process of trial and error. Elimination process works. If you keep repeating same mistakes over and over again, you will end up going in circles.
WWind, allow me to say for the record now and forever, that aside from rules and regulations, any advice about how to enjoy the server from myself or any member of the DM Team can freely be disregarded by yourself and anyone else who so clearly enjoys different kinds of challenges and aspects of EFU. You're free to enjoy this server exactly as you choose.
As it seems plenty of players enjoy a non-combat based labyrinth puzzle, I think we'll leave it as it is for now - but by no means does anyone need to go through it if it's a source of such frustration. And there are ample IC warnings about it being a complicated, confusing place...
If you haven't figured it out in an hour, spend another hour at it. Eventually persistence pays off and you begin to figure out methods of navigation through trial and error. It is tougher to pull off with a group, but by no means impossible. Maybe this is spoilerish...but don't go through a transition to scout and expect to be able to reach your group by heading backwards, you all must hold hands through each step. Hiring someone that knows is 100% the way to go. Chances are they don't have it mapped out themselves, but have figured out a methodology to get through.
And if you are still lost and annoyed? Maybe you should have read the sign. People go mad in these woods yo.
The way through the forest seems to me to be logical and don't need to be memorized. You should only get your camera behind you and think about it like you are there. And turn your map off.
Make it bigger and more confusing. It was my favorite part of the forest. I wish there were deeper parts that clearly are marked dangerous, and than make all passages that direction loop except a few that are random. That would be epic. >_>;
Sometimes I got turned around, but those were the best parts. It only takes a bit of attention to keep trying new paths until you're out. It's really quite small. I had more trouble walking backwards through it then I ever did trying to move forwards.
People are missing a point I said. It's not the entirety of the map. It's actually one of my favorite maps to wander about in. Getting in isn't the issue, wandering about isn't the issue.
In getting out, there is one specific spot, that I've spent so much time in, I can draw it from memory, that if you don't know the right combo, you're basically stuck. That one spot is my only issue.
But as I said, I'm not going to fuss about it anymore.
Does this one spot, happen to have four entrances and is a square?
Nope. While that one does get a bit confusing, it can be navigated if you pay attention. I haven't outright said it, because I'm not going to be quite that spoilerish.
I say make it bigger and add multiple planes and dimensions yo. Best part of the server even though I get lost in it every time.
Best place in the server.
Sounds like you just suck with directions.
Just do it until you've memorized it. Then it becomes like a little labyrinth you can lead PVP into and crazy misty shenanigans follow.
Pen.
Paper.
Really helps.
One of the best parts of the server that you are now sadly missing out on :(.
I am not seeing the value of this thread.
When I first arrived on EFU I had a great time exploring the Forgotten Forest with Avery. The maze works in its favor to drive home how dark and mysterious its supposed to be, and makes it all the more rewarding when you find bits and pieces of lore.
If your PC doesn't know the maze, find a guide who does and draw a map. Use it as an opportunity for for some fun interaction.
I have once logged out as I hadn't time to go through it, but I still like it. Especially as my brother always gets stuck and takes hours atleast to get out, haha.
Pen and paper.
You dont even need pen and paper. I love the area though, especially if you are a stargazer or watcher.
lmao
Quote from: Cerberus;331668If I was the only player that has logged off because of it, says one thing. The fact that more than one player has logged off (or spent hours of time IG there) says to me it needs to be addressed.
So in a nut-shell it boils down to OOC metagame it, and even a min-maxed moron can get through.
And ,.!.. the other 18%
Yep, cool map.
I don't think you read or understood people's responses very well if that's your conclusion. Your opinion is noted, however.
The Forgotten Forest scares me o.o (in a good way, that is.) I love that area so much. I enter it only in times of dire need and I always have so much trouble navigating it. I try to avoid it when I don't have to go there because I don't want familiarity to ruin its mood for me.
But when I do have to go there, it's magical. It is adventure in a way I rarely experience after many years of gaming. (I once saw this demotivator image showing a road fork. The sign by the left road read, "Raccoon City" and the one by the right read, "Silent Hill." If you added a straightway with a sign reading "Forgotten Forest" above it, it would give you a fair idea of how I feel about it. O.o )
~tOH.
It would make much more sense if it were some sort of die roll vs a PC's wilderness survival and astronomy (and whatever other skill/EFUSS else). If you make the roll you get to point B, if you dont then you end up at point Z. This would not punish the PC because of the player. As it stands now you are punishing the PC because of the player and even a native Stargazer druid with a 10 in wilderness survival and 5 in astronomy would get lost because the player can't figure it out. Something like this would also punish the min-maxed power build causing them to get lost (and not metagame their way through, which they are obviously doing now). It would accomplish the same thing and make more sense that the tree-hugger types can find their way through. It would also help keep people from spending two and more hours just randomly bopping around as eventually even the PC's with little to no wilderness survival would make the save and get through.
Some things really need to stay in player control and ability to clear puzzles with their own mental strength. As cruel as it sounds, we will not make everything clearable with rolls.
I will repeat that this is not that difficult thing to figure out. It is a matter of simple elimination process. If you go into same place twice, you've gone wrong somewhere, so simply change the process step by step until you figure it out.
Memorizing the Forgotten Forest was an achievement I always felt particularly proud of. If you use map markers and have about an hour on your hands it's pretty simple to do too.
I love the forest.
I used to do near daily trips through it on my tymorran, for that sweet dice-roll at the end!
I'd hope it doesn't get changed. And that if it does, that the way through is randomized on occasion.
It's a neat, mysterious place.
And there's nothing scarier than having a crazed man leading you through, only to stop on occasion and talk to a voice only he can hear, saying it wouldn't be right to hurt you. Yet.
In short- The forest is amazing.
I absolutely love this thread.
I think I still have the map in my sketchbook that I used when I designed the forest maze for Dan.
1. There is a sign outside of the area that offers a warning that you may get lost.
2. The area was designed as a maze. It can be navigated in both directions, though not without some difficulty, so talk of infinite loops that are meant to suggest that there is a bug or a negative play experience here somewhere are really quite silly.
3. If you dont want to get lost in a maze, dont enter it, period.
4. Anyone choosing to complain about getting lost in a maze they entered that was clearly marked as such has automatically discredited themselves and their suggestion.
In Summary:
If you cannot ski the "Red" slope at the Ski Hill, you ski on the Bunny Hill. You do not complain to management that their clearly marked "Red" slopes are too steep, and demand they be grated down to a more comfortable level for you.
I think the problem is that there is a fundamental misunderstanding about the philosophy of EFU: we do not intend to merely challenge a character, but many of our challenges also represents a degree of challenge to a player also.
For example, you could be playing a 20 INT PC, but if you can't solve a riddle on a DM quest, we're not going to just give you the answer with a successful INT check.
(http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/uploads/monthly_05_2009/post-4521-1242176752.jpg)
Just in case anyone was thinking it was a good idea.