Could an alternative requirement be made for this class for characters dedicated to loremastery (extremely high base lore, as in they already took SF: Lore / or even Courteous Mageocracy) with the only obstacle in the path of the class being a lack of search? I just think it should be possible for a specialist to become an archeologist without 5 search and pick up with experience of a discovery. Perhaps Having 5 search or SF: Lore?
Only feats can have an optional list. Skills that are listed are always "must have."
One unfortunate thing about this is that only rogues and rangers get search as a class skill. Thus, wizards must take it after level 7, which seems rather strange considering the greatest archeologists on Ymph are ALL wizards-- Bell and Faussad. Or at least, I think Faussad is.
I suggest removing the Search requirement, raising the Lore requirement instead to 6 or 7. Or alternatively, make the requirement 5 Lore and EITHER 5 Search or 5 Spellcraft (or maybe even Craft Trap, showing engineering knowledge?)
Quote from: ScottyB;108533Only feats can have an optional list. Skills that are listed are always "must have."
I'm guessing this PrC is geared toward bards. It's a shame, because I'd love to see a wizard PrC with this type of RP focus, as I think it makes more sense for the setting.
You certainly can multiclass in rogue for the search skill. (I see this as a class that has more social abilities than PvP or mechanical abilities useful for PvP)
Maybe reducing the search requirement some would make sense.
4 seems the likely option.
8 Lore, 4 Search?
Indicating that the earliest you'd be taking the level is for your 6th.
A lot of what would be considered to be archeologists in Ymph's history wouldn't even have much search in the stats department, period. Take Sky and Bookbadger's translation of the pair of genesis area tablets near the water, for instance.
If anything in game proves, is that any PC willing to explore ruins, smart, and survives can discover something crazy and write a something about it. You shouldn't be multiclassing to be able to take the PrC for this, it should be the thing you take to represent growth in the field of discovery by interacting and working with a variety of knowledgeable characters and trap-savy people.
I would honestly like the PrC to be in the spirit of the late Archeological Society and see how it goes from there!
Then the scripter can select one, the suggestion remains the same!
Why would you prefer characters to have 6 standard levels, Ninelives? The PrC is so mechanically weak, I'm hesitant to support any additional limitations on taking it, but maybe you've got a reason I'm not seeing.
Six standard levels?
The common combination would be 5 Wizard/X Archaeologist, which is in-line with what people seemingly want.
4 Search can be cross-classed by level 5, meaning you take your first level of archaeologist for your 6th level. No one is being forced to multi-class.
With skill focus in UMD, Open Lock and Disable Trap as class features, I don't think this is really for the Wizardy scholarly type. It seems to be quite specifically for tomb-raiders, trap-springers and delvers of dungeons!
Just look at their feats, Deneir's Eye (+2 saves to traps) Uncanny Dodge II (+1 saves to traps and no flanking), Stonecunning (+2 search when in dungeony areas), two spells a Wizard would already be fully capable of having, and a natural 20 when opening any lock or disabling any trap. Would a Wizard really be a trap-springer? Couldn't you just get famous scholaring stuff without this PrC?
I like the 5 Search.
Archeologists are not lore masters. I don't see why everyone is so convinced it's a spellcaster PrC.
Would a Wizard be a trap-springer? SkillFocuspwn, you clearly have not spent much time getting to know our resident NPC Archeologist AND ARCANE TRAP MAKER, William Bell!
That said, with the worst possible AB progression I don't see why we couldn't have fun with level 2-3-4 something, 5 Archeologist characters considering they would be specialists pretty much dedicated to really dangerous stuff without being able to fight for crap while having the convenience of being useful to the party for traps, locks, and lore. That and I find it counter-intuitive that you must be level 10 to get something when are going to be on DM quests that will definitely roll over your face because you are a Archeologist, and that's what Ymph Archeology is all about. I'd say shoot for level 7-8 for the 5th level, leading to lowbie characters on DM quests being the "guide that gets owned in the movie" =p
Nine, sorry, you're right, only five standard character levels are required in the setup you described. I was trying to ask but poorly worded, Why do you think a character should need 5 of their standard levels before being able to take the PrC (since you suggest an 8 Lore req't)? As it stands right now with the 5 point skill req'ts, players could theoretically take the PrC at level 3. This argument is being made under my previous assumptions regarding spellcasting and "archeology", which to my limited experience on EfU generally revolves around puzzles using spells cast on placables as inputs.
I do like your points, SFP, even if they don't resolve some of my concerns about the typical EfU puzzle style.
Indeed, Snoteye, but EfUA culture reflects (nay, requires!) the symbiosis of arcane and "archeological"/scholarly pursuits. Look at the Crystal Puzzle in the Archeology camp (and certain parts of the Machine back in EfU). And as I mentioned before, all other EfUA "head archeologists" have been arcane spellcasters, even PCs like Highwind. I know that if I were to earn this PrC and came upon a puzzle that required spells, I'd be a little peeved at having to request an spellcaster's assistance to do what I should be a total badass at-- solving archeological puzzles.
I don't see the benefits of this PrC justifying the tertiary BAB. I'd say at least go with secondary... even with Grace you wouldn't be hitting much. While I could understand the possibility of a wizard deciding to instead sacrifice future slots for passable (not good) rogue skill checks, mechanically this isn't a sound choice.
Seems to me to get the best out of this you'd have to pure rogue it, and even then all you really end up with is a multiclass character with secondary/tertiary BAB (very bad news indeed), a buff and a defensive spell, with above average support skills thanks to the class abilities. Not a good tradeoff in my mind.
And yeah, as written you could meet the mechanical reqs for this at level 3. I guess it doesn't really matter since they have to app for it anyhow, just seems odd though.
I find myself in agreement with Semli and SkillFocuspwn, but my main problem about the PrC is not so much the mechanics (although the mechanics don't fit any non-rogue Archaeologist type that I know of...). It's about the RP of the class.
What benefit does it give Garlin, Highwind or Tanith? Each of these PC's seem to be the type of target for this PrC. I just don't see the RP advantages, aside from bragging rights for taking this class. I don't see how any of the aforementioned PC's somehow suffering as a result of not being archeologist's.
Then again, maybe it is because I am associating this class being geared toward scholarly characters. It seems more Indiana Jones than anything else, so if that is what was being aimed at – great. Although, like Semi said I would up the ab progression. Rogues / Rangers / Bards might enjoy this class.
As it stands, though, for scholarly characters I would just take a bard level for bardic lore.
For plus one lore?
I made a rogue (Alexander Addams) in the UD who would have loved this class, he spent all his time wandering the Machine with gnomes.
I can see the point of this class, as it can make a character the ultimate ruins investigator and de-trapper. However, that comes at the cost of BAB, sneaks or spells, which you need to do stuff that isn't ruins exploring under steath and invis. This class doesn't seem much use on quests compared to a rogue who can Skill Focus and shoot with sneaks. The abilities it gets are nice, but you can get away with average to levels of those skills by multiclassing, and be able to do more with the PC.
Either it needs to be worthwhile to take a level or two of to round out a scholarly PC, or be good enough to want to take all 5 levels. One level on an exploring rogue or rogue/wiz is cool for the load of Skill Focus feats, but after that, not so much.
EDIT:
Put my money where my mouth is and rolled up an Archaeologist in the campaign. They do indeed make phenomenally good explorers and trappers at Rogue 2/Archaeo 5, as they get to cast those 1/day spells at Archaologist class level. The trouble would be GETTING the class from level 3. However, short of solo exploring, it can't really do much, whereas my example Rogue 3/wiz 4 gets to choose from a selection of spells including Grace, Invis, Identify, gets Tumble AC, arcane wands, Scribe Scroll, more sneaks and better AB. So, more useful for puzzle solving, and for combat. All it loses out on is HP, but Archaeologist isn't combative and needing of it anyway.
And that build requires no app. Same goes for Rogue/Bard which gets more skillpoints, better AB and more Lore.
I think the class could do with Mid BAB and either the Blackguard Sneak Attack feat, more spells or some combat abilities. The saves are nice, but with that much search and disable, you won't ever be setting the traps off in the first place.
I'm just going to say this about the Archaeologist PRC: I am presently playing a PC who has cobbled together exactly this same specific collection of skills and abilities through multiclassing. If I could go back in time and take this PRC, I probably would. This is a pretty useful class as-is.
Quote from: Aldrick Tanith;108611What benefit does it give Garlin, Highwind or Tanith? Each of these PC's seem to be the type of target for this PrC. I just don't see the RP advantages, aside from bragging rights for taking this class. I don't see how any of the aforementioned PC's somehow suffering as a result of not being archeologist's.
Like you said, a distinction should be made here between an archaeologist and a scholar, and also between an adventurer and an archaeologist. This PRC really does seem to straddle the line between Lara Croft and Indiana Jones, but the spectrum of classes that would be interested in archaeological research is much wider.
The way I'm reading it, the whole point of the class seems focused on making the initial discovery, but not much beyond that. The PRC would still need someone like Tainth, Garlin, or Highwind to make sense of what they found. The appeal of the PRC to those characters would be entirely vicarious.
the thing is, Jharla's more useful than this class. She's got more spells, a wider range of them, sneak attacks, and can use wands without UMD. She can solo explore well, or buff up a party with basic spells and then shoot and de-trap.
Archaeologist would give you better search, lore, open and disable, and better saves. Not a great trade-off IMO compared to multiclassing rogue instead. 1 level of Archaeo, sure, you could even get that for your character, as I thought she'd discovered some quite significant stuff, and the 1st level feats are very good. I think that's a nice alternative to 1 Rogue for a wizard character looking to explore more.
The problem with this class is it has RP skills, exploring skills and trap skills but absolutely no combat capability either offensively or in support. You haven't got the BAB to shoot or hit things, you have no offensive spells, buffs (other than one grace) or heals, and you can't set traps. It's hell on wheels for DM quests and trap removal but short of UMDing wands you've no way to assist your party either by enhancing, healing or fighting. And since you will likely need levels anyway to do the exploring and make that discovery, you won't even have the spells for a while.
Somehow in the process of my original suggestion, ScottyB's proposed revision, and implementation Archeologist got dramatically nerfed. To be honest I hadn't even noticed.
I personally agree that some of the proposed bonuses (such as, yes, medium BAB) should be returned, but I'll have to check in to see why it was changed.
In my uncreative, unimaginative and completely out of place opinion, I don't see this PrC as being coherent to the supposedly intense studying time that most wizards should have.
The way I see it, it's more likely that, let's say, a bard becomes an Archeologist to dive deep down a certain ruin, to find tomes, relics or whatever, to bring back for the wizard\scholar to study and learn new things, etc.
This is the Indiana Jones PrC.
Then Give It Tumble, before I produce a screenshot montages of Indy's Greatest Tumble Checks :P.
not a prc I would ever app for in it's current state. very mechically weak for the standard app range for prc characters. normally people are around level 6-7 before gaining a prc just due to normal playing and time needed to meet requirements.
the prc as it stands now I view as a 'capstone' class, like to get the name only, for special prc oriented gear, etc. for me,, to mechanically weak to justify taking it earlier.
Then it needs the following:
Weapon Proficiency: Exotic
Weapon Focus: Whip
Weapon Specialization: Whip
Improved Disarm
Favored Enemy: Nazi
Skill Focus: Hide in Refrigerator vs. Nuclear
Here are my suggestions for improvements.
- Requires 8 Lore and 4 Search, making it so that the first level of this class is taken at 6th.
- Increase AB progression to medium.
- Add Tumble, Set Trap and Craft Trap as a class skills.
- For each level gained in the class you gain +1 disarm trap, open lock, search and lore.
- For level two, increase Uncanny Dodge to III instead of II (+2 reflex save vs. traps) - this gives the PrC +4 reflex save vs. traps from class benefits alone. Remove darkvision, it's useless in NWN, replace it with Stonecunning (+2 Search indoors) from level three.
- For level three, remove cat's grace and replace it with a flat +2 Dex bonus. Add Stealthy (+2 bonus to hide and move silently checks).
- For level four, remove Invisibility and replace it with Skill Focus: Hide, Move Silently. Remove Hit Die Increase: 8 and replace it with the Toughness feat.
The Archaeologist is Indiana Jones. You live and die by your wits, skill and knowledge. You're good at getting into and out of places you weren't meant to be in, disarming things you weren't meant to disarm, and finding things that weren't meant for you to find. In a nutshell: you discover things. This is what you do.
An Archaeologist PC, by level ten who has focused on what the core of the PrC is about (disarming traps, opening locks, searching for secret doors, and reading / translating ancient texts) should be able to do these things better than anyone else.
They aren't a magical class, which is why I suggested removing darkvision (in addition to sucking), invisibility and cat's grace. Replace those things by being stealthy.
William Bell would have been a Wizard 5 / Archaeologist 5, though clearly the class is aimed at Rogues and Rangers. Indiana Jones or Lara Croft would have been a Ranger 5 / Archaeologist 5.
I much prefer Tanith's version.
I like Tanith's version too, but it seems even less powerful than the existing version. Something is missing to make archeologist REALLY stick out, which in my opinion, they should! Maybe the option to re-roll on failed translation attempts?
Maybe something like how Palemasters get really neat undead grafts, Archeologists get special access to certain devices?
Palemasters really need the undead grafts to get by. Trading in the ability to associate with most NPCs and PCs just based on your readily apparent features should mean that you get substantial benefits as compensation. An Archaeologist shouldn't typically have this problem, however.
Conversely, I think Tanith's suggestion might need some toning down, but it's definately a step in the right direction. I should be apping for something I actually want to play rather than just getting some bragging rights on a PC I go suicidal with in two weeks out of boredom.
Garem, I think it's far superior to the previous class progression. What makes you think it's worse?
You think it's less powerful? :eek:
Granted, it's not a combat powerhouse, but it does exactly what it's supposed to do very well: open locks, disarm traps, avoid traps, sneak around (get into places it shouldn't), read ancient texts, and search for hidden things. It's like a specialized rogue.
I think the real test, mechanically, for any class or PrC is this: What do they do in a standard questing group?
I see the Archaeologist as filling the role of the scout, trap disarmer and chest opener. He has a decent melee ability, as well, but that isn't his primary focus. So in essence, an Archaeologist can fill the spot of any rogue in the group, and while he does less damage he is sure to still be useful.
Even if he cannot disarm traps (as it is on some quests), he can still mark them.
Because all of the really useful stuff comes far too late for it to be particularly awesome. Also, 1/day invisibility is pretty amazing. It's your ace in the hole that keeps you safe without pesky AoOs. Plus, most of the benefits from the class come from extra feats- Stealthy and SF: Hide and MS are the most notable ones, both of which are earned at levels 8 and 10 when they're usually not needed because of items. This also means you can't get those feats earlier (when they are significantly more helpful!) or you gain nothing from leveling up from feats. Invisibility 1/day is just superior to Stealth, mechanically.
If this is supposed to be an Indiana Jones or Lara Croft replica PrC, it has missed the mark (in my opinion). Why? Both of them kick ass in combat and pull off moves that can't be mimicked in NWN, largely due to mechanical and game limitations. We also face much, much scarier things in EfUA than Indiana who fights mostly humans, and Lara has guns. Also, when things get tough for these two, what is their first reaction- RUN! We can't do that, or we don't get any rewards! Almost everything in EfUA and NWN is earned by killing something, barring when there is a DM to oversee things. We don't have the DMing power to constantly write and oversee events with the kind of frequency to make this a fulfilling PrC to take. I envision this as a "good in theory, poor in practice" sort of thing, hence I suggest something to give the class something special or this "adventuring" class is going to be doing a whole lot of nothing in combat, waiting for that ONE little spot on the DM event/scripted quest (that they've already done...) where they get to shine. Or the bard with them will just cast Identify and translate the book for them. "Oh, that's what that book says, Mr. Archy-PrC? Swell, but now we have to go kill Boss X to get anything out of this dig (like our lives!), so step aside and read your book or polish your digging tools while I get you out of this mess."
Am I being cynical or realistic? Probably both. Maybe you think the Archy PrC is just supposed to be a really cool RP class. Well, that's a fair point I suppose, but if it's a purely RP class, why bother making this technical mechanical setup for it when the mechanics REALLY don't matter so much in the first place, being an RP class? To that end, to hell with an App process and having to earn real estate (which we all know to be difficult and time-consuming for DMs and players alike, and for little benefit to any other players in this instance!), I'll just take a few Skill Focus feats, keep my balanced standard class (pure rogues and rangers are pretty damned good classes), and call myself an Archeologist and equally perform the PrC in one or two of the five or so aspects but be only a few points behind in the others.
To reign it back in, I do not think the idea of this class is a bad one, I am just wary of what Tanith is talking about-- taking it for the flashy title with no significant benefits.
Edit/Adding:
"It's like a specialized rogue." -Tanith
Yep. Without Sneak Attacks and 1 less skill per level (although, with extra feats, grossing a large sum at the first level in particular).
If you still need more power, then I'd propose the following enhancements to my original suggestion.
- Remove all feats from the PrC, and instead make it flat skill bonuses.
- You gain +2 to open lock, search, lore and disarm trap per level, giving you a max of +10 at 10th level.
- +2 to Hide and Move Silently at both third and forth level of the PrC. (That would be 8th and 9th level respectively.)
- At the second level of the PrC (7th PC level), add intelligence modifier to all saving throws. (Works just like a Paladin's bonuses from Charisma, and for most PC's taking this PrC that means +2 to all saves.)
- At fifth level (10th PC level) drop Tymora's Smile and give a flat +2 to all saves.
That allows you to take the feats early, while still remaining true to the original vision of the PrC.
Well done, Tanith. I REALLY like this version. This gives Archeologists monk-like survivability but without the unique combat bonuses (ImpKDs and Flurry). I do think the H/MS should be lumped in with the other skills (again, by level 8 +2/+2 isn't worth that much) though. It makes the PrC kinda front heavy, and might lead people to take only a level or two, but hopefully not.
NOW you're looking a little more like Indy and Lara. People will always be asking "HOW did they survive that?". This is a lot closer to that vision.
God I hate scripting class-specific features. Also, math.
Edit: Not yet available for download, but: the page has been updated (http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?p=106940#post106940)
Quote from: ScottyB;108911available for download
Oh, now you're talking.
Much better. Taking this with some caster levels and then getting the extra slots for metamagic or scroll learnign, then the auto still spell feat is badass. However, it seems like what everyone wants is Indiana Jones not Doctor Spock :P.
Could I suggest if you really don't want to up the BAB, to add the feats:
Favoured Enemy: Undead
Favoured Enemy: Construct
Favoured Enemy: Vermin
That makes the class particularly good at defending itself against the things that harass explorers the most, and works off having a detailed knowledge.
Since the "Indiana Jones" more rogueish PrC idea seems popular, I've have a crack at a PrC blueprint that's more combative and based around the idea of "get in, nab the relic, and be able to slip past or disable anyone who's after you" It's here (clicky) (http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?p=108936#post108936)
I wasn't going to respond to this thread again, because I already put forward my suggestions... but what the hell. I want to throw a comparison up, to illustrate why the Archaeologist is a weak PrC, and why someone skilled and talented like ScottyB could better be served doing something else.
First of all, let's establish this fact: to take full advantage of this PrC you are going to have to reach level ten. I have never had a level ten PC my entire career on EfU which has been three years. I have not had a level nine character, either. Aldrick is my second level eight character. I am just throwing that out there for prospective.
Second, PrC's are application only. As such DM's have complete control over who gets to play them and who does not. Even if you made this PrC into all it could potentially be, it would still be no where near as powerful as say: a werewolf. At the moment, it is more like you are applying to be a kobold.
Assuming you get your application approved and magically reach tenth level, take a tenth level rogue and a fifth level rogue / fifth level archaeologist side by side. What are the benefits of becoming an archaeologist?
Skill wise, you receive +2 to Open Lock, Disable Trap, Lore and Search. You might get +4 Search indoors only, assuming you are not a dwarf otherwise it is just redundant. You get Cat's Grace once per day, which is good, although that heavily depends on duration. You get a much better will save which is great. You get +4 Saves vs Traps, which is also great. You get +2 to all saves for five turns, although let's hope Murphy's Law doesn't hold true - otherwise when you need it most you won't have it ready. Although Invisibility once per day is great, it is one of the most prevalent potions in the game no doubt right after healing as it is equally important for survival.
You get all of that, at the expense of three less skill points per level. You get lower AB. You get less sneak attack. You don't get tumble. You get fewer skills in general. Although you do get skill mastery as an archaeologist at level ten, you can also take it as a level ten rogue. The difference, however, is that you can choose from a list of other potential feats. The skill points gained as an Archaeologist are easily made up for through items. The magic related enhancements are useless to you. Darkvision by and large is pointless, and in some cases completely redundant because you already have it.
Now keep all the above in mind, and also remember that you have to send in an application to get this PrC and understand that a lot of the benefits it gives you are very situational. Disable Trap, for example, is only useful on quests with traps. However, conversely, the negatives that exist are always present. You always have fewer skill points and have a lower AB.
Don't forget that Hit Die increase it only matters if you make tenth level. It is not retroactive.
So, I believe it is pretty clear. Why would anyone take this class over multi-classing into a rogue and then call themselves an Archaeologist? It does not really matter RP wise. Pretty much the only benefit to taking this PrC is for the increased will save, but you could take bard for that and get more useful skills and abilities plus higher lore.
Skill Focus are +3 each, not +2.
I knocked Skill Mastery down to 4th level Archaeologist, which for a rogue could be taken as soon as level 7, if you manage to get the class at level 3 (steal a dead man's discovery?)
HD increase should also apply to the level you receive it, right?
I have never seen this class as combat-oriented. More of a "dodge the traps, pilfer some magic" class. Perhaps it needs more Uncanny Dodges?
I'd say give it Evasion. I'm surprsied it doesn't have it.
Are the updated bonuses those originally suggested by Howland?
I believe Howland's original idea was completely non-magical. So no, the Auto Still/spell slot ideas weren't his. ;>_>
Quote from: ScottyB;108991HD increase should also apply to the level you receive it, right?
I wasn't completely sure on this either, so I asked on IRC and they told me no. It is why I suggested toughness in my original suggestion. That's a guaranteed +9 HP when you achieve level nine.
Quote from: ScottyB;108991Skill Focus are +3 each, not +2.
I knocked Skill Mastery down to 4th level Archaeologist, which for a rogue could be taken as soon as level 7, if you manage to get the class at level 3 (steal a dead man's discovery?)
I personally feel that level three is generally too early for a PrC. You'd literally be going from the OOC starting area to a major discovery within a matter of hours. I feel that there -should- be some RP involved before that happens.
With that in mind, +3 to the core skills of this PrC just feels weak. I agree that I didn't believe it was highly combat oriented, but if you look at a pure rogue it's all about the trade off. I generally feel that a PrC should be more powerful in the areas it specializes in. You become weaker in other areas as a result of your specialization, that being the trade off.
Also, like Howland, I feel that this PrC should not be focused upon magic. I think the benefit given to casters is good in regard to leveling up. It compliments their base class, and makes it an attractive option for clerics, wizards and bards. However, I don't feel adding Automatic Still Spell is necessary.
I think this PrC should go back to the drawing board and figure out what it is trying to do. Is it trying to be Indiana Jones or is it trying to be a scholar? It just isn't clear. I think the question of what role the Archaeologist will play, both in terms of contributing RP wise and mechanically to groups should be answered. Once it is clear how it fits into the overall scheme of EfU: A then I think it should be easy to fix any issues with it from there.
Right now, people seem to hold conflicting views over what it should actually be and it has a case of identity crisis.
I'm really thankful for all the time and work you're putting into this, Scotty. I hope I'm not coming off as ungrateful. I just don't want to see your time wasted on something that the majority of people don't even give a second look. I think this PrC has potential thematically for EfU: A if implemented properly. It just needs to figure out what it is trying to be.
Quote from: Aldrick Tanith;109103I think this PrC should go back to the drawing board and figure out what it is trying to do. Is it trying to be Indiana Jones or is it trying to be a scholar? It just isn't clear. I think the question of what role the Archaeologist will play, both in terms of contributing RP wise and mechanically to groups should be answered. Once it is clear how it fits into the overall scheme of EfU: A then I think it should be easy to fix any issues with it from there.
I think that the Archaeologist PrC is pretty straight forward, and simple. <_> What is there not to understand? Archaeologists are people who are involved in the study of ancient things. On EFU:A, this PrC makes a lot of sense due to the vast amount of ancient structures, ruins, and mysteries on Ymph. And the Archaeologist will be discovering/recovering such stuff.
As for what its trying to be, (IMO) what's wrong with there being two, three or more sides to the PrC? It should not be any clearer than the fact that it is for "archaeologists", you can be an adventuring type, a scholarly type, or pretty much anything that is interesting, and fun. There should be no strict ways of playing one, as long as they remain archaeologists.
As for the mechanical part of the class, I think the new changes are good, it does not feel weak, but that depends on your classes/build, and by the way the class can be tested on single player. I like the fact that you can be basically any class and be an archaeologist.
Keep the PrC I say, and edit if needed.
Speaking of mechanics, I'd be interested to see what Howland's original bonuses were!
Speaking of RP, I'd definitely agree with Wern8. An archaeologist is a an archaeologist. They devote themselves to unearthing lost treasures and mysteries. Why they do so (for self-profit or for purely scholarly means, or whatever) depends on the character. The more open it is to different interpretations, the better!
I still don't understand why anyone who was serious about becoming an Archaeologist wouldn't just multi-class as rogue instead. I am pretty sure the DM's aren't going to make it so that new discoveries are Archaeologist only.
But, yeah... Whatever. >_> I am beating a dead horse now, I think.
My proposal was originally more "Indiana Jones," but Scotty's version is fine with me. At the moment, it's undeniably a very nice class for wizards or other casters - which I think Garem pointed out that traditionally in EFU the best scholars often were casters of some kind (Bell, Faussad, etc.)
Quote from: MisterPAIN;108590A lot of what would be considered to be archeologists in Ymph's history wouldn't even have much search in the stats department, period. Take Sky and Bookbadger's translation of the pair of genesis area tablets near the water, for instance.
If anything in game proves, is that any PC willing to explore ruins, smart, and survives can discover something crazy and write a something about it. You shouldn't be multiclassing to be able to take the PrC for this, it should be the thing you take to represent growth in the field of discovery by interacting and working with a variety of knowledgeable characters and trap-savy people.
I would honestly like the PrC to be in the spirit of the late Archeological Society and see how it goes from there!
Quote from: Wern8;109108I think that the Archaeologist PrC is pretty straight forward, and simple. <_> What is there not to understand? Archaeologists are people who are involved in the study of ancient things. On EFU:A, this PrC makes a lot of sense due to the vast amount of ancient structures, ruins, and mysteries on Ymph. And the Archaeologist will be discovering/recovering such stuff.
As for what its trying to be, (IMO) what's wrong with there being two, three or more sides to the PrC? It should not be any clearer than the fact that it is for "archaeologists", you can be an adventuring type, a scholarly type, or pretty much anything that is interesting, and fun. There should be no strict ways of playing one, as long as they remain archaeologists.
As for the mechanical part of the class, I think the new changes are good, it does not feel weak, but that depends on your classes/build, and by the way the class can be tested on single player. I like the fact that you can be basically any class and be an archaeologist.
Keep the PrC I say, and edit if needed.
Quote from: Caddies;109112Speaking of mechanics, I'd be interested to see what Howland's original bonuses were!
Speaking of RP, I'd definitely agree with Wern8. An archaeologist is a an archaeologist. They devote themselves to unearthing lost treasures and mysteries. Why they do so (for self-profit or for purely scholarly means, or whatever) depends on the character. The more open it is to different interpretations, the better!
>.> I wonder how the mighty Wern8 got that idea.
Perhaps changing tertiary BAB to secondary BAB is better. Might be better for those who want to be an adventuring type of Archaeologist, and the extra BAB shouldn't make those who wish to be Wizards much stronger either. It is very likely that they wouldn't be using their AB anyway.
I just don't see why a Wizard would -want- this class. It's a PrC to show someone getting really good at dungeon looting, it's no specific sign that you're really good at reading stuff and finding stuff out. Should anyone be able to become a WM if they're really awesome at killing stuff with a specified weapon? Should WM be changed so that -everyone-, no matter who they are, can do it if they use a weapon really well?
There is a difference between being a Divine Champion and fighting for your God. There is a difference between being an Archeologist and discovering massive secrets, stealing ancient Netherese loot, and exploring constantly. Not having this specific PrC limits you in absolutely no way, and I think it's perfectly suited to be an awesome little thing for Roguey-types, to make them even more desired on dungeon raids.
Quote from: SkillFocuspwn;109300I just don't see why a Wizard would -want- this class. It's a PrC to show someone getting really good at dungeon looting, it's no specific sign that you're really good at reading stuff and finding stuff out. Should anyone be able to become a WM if they're really awesome at killing stuff with a specified weapon? Should WM be changed so that -everyone-, no matter who they are, can do it if they use a weapon really well?
There is a difference between being a Divine Champion and fighting for your God. There is a difference between being an Archeologist and discovering massive secrets, stealing ancient Netherese loot, and exploring constantly. Not having this specific PrC limits you in absolutely no way, and I think it's perfectly suited to be an awesome little thing for Roguey-types, to make them even more desired on dungeon raids.
Quoted because I agree. I think the theme should have stuck with "Indiana Jones" rather than trying to be a little bit to everybody. Unless the caster in question intended to multi-class into rogue anyway, there is really no reason why a caster would take this class.
You're a sneak, explorer and dungeon looter - that's it, basically.
A wizard (scholar) that multiclasses to Archeologist will still get all the benefits of additional spells (just not caster level/extra wizard feat, which is an acceptable trade off) and in exchange get all the skills needed to disable the traps, open the locks, etc. to get to the places where they need to conduct their arcane research.
I am thinking about PCs like IX, and NPCs like Bell, Faussad, etc.
It's certainly not a weak prestige class by any means.
It would have definitely thrived within the Spellguard, for sure, that you mention Ix. Machine stuff, etc.
I think on the whole it is a very nice addition to Caster PRCs. I always thought there were far too few of them.
Ironically, I have been trying out various builds in singleplayer with the Archeologist before I stumbled on this thread. I'm honored to have a character of mine mentioned here!
The PrC can be very strong under the right circumstances - however, it doesn't start to shine until its fourth level, so it needs to be taken extremely early. As noted, this can presumably be difficult to achieve at level 2. Its major caveat is that it simply can't beat a Bard in Lore checks - and Lore is a very very important component of exploration. The default Harper Scout gave Bardic Knowledge, it's unfortunate it got cut. The spell Identify does not take into consideration Archeologist levels.
Assuming 14 intelligence:
Level 7 Bard: 10 (ranks) + 2 (int mod) + 7 (bardic knowledge) + 17 (identify+level bonus) = 36 Lore (39 with Skill Focus)
Level 1 wiz/1 rog/5 arc: 10 (ranks) + 2 (int mod) + 11 (identify+level bonus) + 3 (skill focus) = 26 Lore
If this is viewed as problematic, the possible solutions are granting Identify 1/day (+15-11 = 30), Bardic Knowledge (+5 = 31), Epic Skill Focus: Lore (+10 = 36), or granting Legend Lore 1/day (+12 = 38 ).
I believe the worst ability the PrC grants is its hit dice upgrade. Since it applies solely to level 4 and 5, if you are extremely lucky this translates into a maximum of 4 additional hit points over two levels. Very underwhelming, but since it isn't the focus of the class, I prefer to see it as icing on the cake, and have no problem with it. Toughness would be better, since it's retroactive. I am aware, and others should be too, that for a casting class, the d6 base hit dice is a wonderful thing.
However, much more damaging to the class, is that the override
does not grant Skill Focus: Disable Traps as it should - instead, it grants Skill Focus: UMD. Since this is the focus of the class, I hope it gets fixed eventually!
QuoteSpells: Arcane and Divine spell slots become available as if the character gained levels in their caster class; they do not gain caster levels or learn new spells.
For some reason, in singleplayer, it took 2 Archeologist levels to get the spell slot effects of one level of the caster class. For instance, a level 3 cleric/3 wizard/4 Archeologist had the spell slots of a level 5 cleric/5 wizard instead of 7 cleric/7 wizard. It's possible that this property works on EfU:A but not in singleplayer, I suppose. This ability working correctly would go a long way to making the class desirable!
Similarly, a Ranger does unlock his spell slots from the Archeologist levels, but will not know any spell to memorize until he has 4 Ranger levels. Silly Rangers.
My view of the Archeologist - and I would have taken it in a heartbeat with any of my exploring characters - is about high Lore, and navigating treacherous unexplored grounds thanks to his trap-negating abilities, supplemented by his spells. Unfortunatly, the absence of Skill Focus: Disable Traps (despite being mentionned here (http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24650)), as well as overall lower Lore than a Bard's, tarnishes this image somewhat.
I think adding Evasion on first or second level and maybe Legend Lore once/day on fourth or fifth would compliment this PRC nicely.
I suppose Epic SF: Lore could be worked in at some point.
Evasion applies to all reflex saves, and with the exception of Tymora's Smile, I'd rather the class be focused on trap saves; maybe each level should grant the Uncanny Dodge increases.
It's a shame that the SF:UMD instead of Device was never reported as a bug; I'll get around to fixing that.
How about working some poison resistance in there for the dreaded gas traps and ruins-infesting dire spiders with 453 Spot and Listen.
Archeologists beware kryptonite !