Remove the check points and replace them with a sigil on the ground that scans for enthrallment as a person steps on it and teleports a thrall into a cage if discovered, but otherwise does not obstruct passage in or out of upper sanctuary. Upper sanctuary is far too secure. There are no real ic reasons for this one, but I find one hundred percent safe to be one hundred percent boring. PC watchers could still man a check point of sorts, but it wouldn't be as full-proof as the current set up.
Having the checkpoints be constructed out of destructible spiked barricades would be better than the "indestructable rubble walls" we have now, IMO. They could be destroyed and potentially replaced/enforced with more barricades if WaW PCs feel like doing so.
There should be some kind of wall with the illusion gone, and the current gate is destructible fairly sure. I busted out myself on a character not long ago.
These gates may look impressive, but with a DM online its fairly simple to break through. Of course chaos will ensue...
However, I do feel that there should be some secret passages that lead inside Sanctuary. And if it could be randomized it would be even better.
Secret passages would probably be the best - I remember in the original EfU there were some into the machine; used them when we were in Reynold's rebels to let our gnomish wizard buy some potions supplies and such... and once got assassinated through them in a Scooby Doo chase. But I do like the immersion, it feels like Sanctuary is duely paranoid about the Dreads.
That said, maybe something could be done about the dialogue since as it is it massively clogs up the chatboxes, especially since after a certain point it should be "Yep, check." [get checked] "Okay go in."
Playing devil's advocate a bit here, but why? Ultimately, the gripe is "I want it to be easier to attack Sanctuary" and I suppose I don't understand the issue. You need a DM no matter what to oversee the PvP, so that certainly isn't the problem. The Shield "era" of Sanctuary made it laughably easy to attack a bunch of people in the square (sometimes even FD someone abruptly) and then walk away from the situation. It was even easier if you were inside an area that didn't require your ring and you could just take it off before walking out to confuse everyone.
If the last week or so is indicative of anything, the amount of PvP inside Sanctuary certainly hasn't decreased -- in fact, it's probably increased of late. As long as you state your intent to a DM ahead of time, retreating from the gate doesn't seem like an especially difficult task all things considered. And while I can't say I have any personal experience in this area, I can't imagine it'd be especially difficult with the handful of daily active DM's we have to simply be like, "Hey, I wanna assault Sanctuary's gates tomorrow around xyz, can you oversee?" If you want secret passages, pursue that IG with a PC that has a history/story that revolves around striking at Sanctuary and regularly butting heads with the WaW rather than some nameless level 8 who has done nothing of import but stomp his way through quests before trying to beat on people in the square.
EDIT: to clarify, that last portion isn't directed at anyone in particular or in reference to any specific event, particularly not one that has happened recently from my perspective.
To answer your question of "why", the answer is quite simply because it is far too easy to hide in Sanctuary while your enemies are ig.
Quote from: prestonhunt;n660827To answer your question of "why", the answer is quite simply because it is far too easy to hide in Sanctuary while your enemies are ig.
Is it possible to conceal the player list when online? Might make the server appear quite lonely but then you wouldn't have OOC knowledge of your enemies being online or even know if your targets are online either.
Quote from: zDark Shadowz;n660853Is it possible to conceal the player list when online? Might make the server appear quite lonely but then you wouldn't have OOC knowledge of your enemies being online or even know if your targets are online either.
Could hide players in the POC. One thing I noticed from my short time playing with the Shattered Shore is the amount of players who OOCly dodge/avoid logging in at times when we were online. I know its only a lite-form of metagaming, but still one worth noting.
Would the removal of the player list in game be possible with haks?
I have to agree the checkpoints have stopped the great assassinations and bombings compared to when the Shield was up. I say get rid of them or lighten security up, let villains have their day of terror upon Sanctuary for no where is safe from their grasp!
Quote from: Deadlykate;n660859I have to agree the checkpoints have stopped the great assassinations and bombings compared to when the Shield was up. I say get rid of them or lighten security up, let villains have their day of terror upon Sanctuary for no where is safe from their grasp!
Ultimately the problem will be to do it IC. A bombing happens, then everyone will advocate for said security to return. It's a pain in the ass, but if there's a genuine ready threat people would probably put up with it. Now the thrall thing can easily be done with an area ward or something like that, sort of like what New Dunwarren used to have way back in original EfU against Evil and Chaotic. Then lower the gates since the checkpoints aren't needed - maybe leave the chokepoints, but it's not constantly barred except during lockdowns. So it can still lock down, but day-to-day it's 'open'.
I would rather see dangerous refugee camps start popping up just outside the main gates. A tent city in response to the heightened security.
They let ANYONE (except for thralls) in. How is that "too secured"? There is no heightened security, as instead of Watchers on the street, there are just emergency panels.
There haven't been too many bombings or assassinations this chapter (maybe one or two?), and even so, they all required a DM to oversee anyway. I don't think any players approached us for bombings and assassinations whatsoever.
And like before when the Shield was up, a wanted criminal needs to have a DM to oversee when they enter Lower, same as when a Spellguard Agent or a known Watcher or Warder try to enter Lower.
I don't see it too secured, unless I'm missing what Naga was addressing.
Quote from: Tala;n660871They let ANYONE (except for thralls) in. How is that "too secured"? There is no heightened security, as instead of Watchers on the street, there are just emergency panels.
There haven't been too many bombings or assassinations this chapter (maybe one or two?), and even so, they all required a DM to oversee anyway. I don't think any players approached us for bombings and assassinations whatsoever.
And like before when the Shield was up, a wanted criminal needs to have a DM to oversee when they enter Lower, same as when a Spellguard Agent or a known Watcher or Warder try to enter Lower.
I don't see it too secured, unless I'm missing what Naga was addressing.
Before the gate it felt "possible" to escape from the major hub after killing somebody as every single major hub had multiple escape routes. Upper has 2 (3 if you count the vault) and all of them are just a right click lock away from requiring you to bash them down. Where as in EFU classic there was no gate at all in upper, efu:A there was one gate but you could escape via the ruins to the docks, efu:M you could cross the bridge, go around the outside towards the back or into the old stones.
In efu:R it would be perfectly ic'ly reasonable for the guards to IMMEDIATELY lock the gates if any crime were to occur. Which makes it extremely unlikely that anybody will even attempt to attack anybody up there. Thats why there hasn't been too many bombings or assassinations this chapter, it's an extremely unattractive prospect from an ooc perspective as the chances of success hinge on how many hits the dm overseeing feels the gate would take to open, or what the dc would be to jump over it, or whether the npc's would be incompetent and not lock the door. All of these things are very ambiguous and one DM might think differently from another meaning different results based on who's overseeing which can mislead people to think "Oh the guards lock the doors for X character, but let the assassin of Y get away guess they didn't like X as much as Y."
Which is why I feel the best solution would be to remove the gate or at least make all of the objects around the gate destructible and add multiple secret routes in and out of upper sanctuary.
Quote from: Anonymous Lemur;n660887Before the gate it felt "possible" to escape from the major hub after killing somebody as every single major hub had multiple escape routes. Upper has 2 (3 if you count the vault) and all of them are just a right click lock away from requiring you to bash them down. Where as in EFU classic there was no gate at all in upper, efu:A there was one gate but you could escape via the ruins to the docks, efu:M you could cross the bridge, go around the outside towards the back or into the old stones.
In efu:R it would be perfectly ic'ly reasonable for the guards to IMMEDIATELY lock the gates if any crime were to occur. Which makes it extremely unlikely that anybody will even attempt to attack anybody up there. Thats why there hasn't been too many bombings or assassinations this chapter, it's an extremely unattractive prospect from an ooc perspective as the chances of success hinge on how many hits the dm overseeing feels the gate would take to open, or what the dc would be to jump over it, or whether the npc's would be incompetent and not lock the door. All of these things are very ambiguous and one DM might think differently from another meaning different results based on who's overseeing which can mislead people to think "Oh the guards lock the doors for X character, but let the assassin of Y get away guess they didn't like X as much as Y."
Which is why I feel the best solution would be to remove the gate or at least make all of the objects around the gate destructible and add multiple secret routes in and out of upper sanctuary.
I don't really disagree with you but I think it should be said that these gates were a relatively new addition this chapter and for at least two years we had a completely penetrable shield which literally had an escape point at every location. There still weren't very many attacks/assassinations.
Quote from: SHSLDetective;n660902I don't really disagree with you but I think it should be said that these gates were a relatively new addition this chapter and for at least two years we had a completely penetrable shield which literally had an escape point at every location. There still weren't very many attacks/assassinations.
If anything that's even more of a reason why the gates are terrible for that sort of thing as they make something that was already a scary prospect to most people even scarier.
A few assassinations/attacks is a whole lot more than none, which will be the case if notorious criminals/villains can't enter Sanctuary (and criminals in general can't make an escape). Just think, had checkpoints been in place earlier, Edwyn Nibley's raid on the Refinery wouldn't have been impossible. I think ShadowCharlatan's idea is worth implementing. Having animatrons whose only function is to test for thralldom. But even then does trivializing thralldom and the Dread's only means of affecting Sanctuary make for a good story?
Honestly, given how lax security is at the gates it seems like it would be quite trivial for all but the most notorious of criminals of just put on a disguise and walk right into the city anyways. That means that it isn't actually all that hard to make assassination attempts, which have the benefit of confusion and can even potentially go undetected if done well. Which means that only more open attacks on the city will face the difficulty in escaping, and... isn't that sort of the point? If it is incredibly easy to make strikes on the city it carries less weight when it does happen. The risk of being caught only serves to make larger attacks more legendary in their wake. If you're going to make an open terrorist attack on Sanctuary it's the sort of thing you'd want to have a well-prepared and well-equipped band for.
Really, given that not too long ago a single man managed to break through the Watcher barricade I don't think it is that much of a problem as people seem to believe.
Speaking as someone who has gate-crashed since checkpoint inception, I can agree that the checkpoints look intimidating, but the reality was that it was fairly easy even for under-supplied Lowersmen PC's to break through the gates. I hope that our break-in was purposefully easy- that Sanctuary's security is stretched too thin and the lack of a concerted defense is the result. I don't think anyone trying to bust in or break out has ever been prevented by NPC's, though that doesn't answer the question of why so few people seem to try.
I'd still suggest adding side alley transitions that can lead to random locations.
I'd rather just have a gate that actually swings open and closed when permitting people in to give the potential for thralls or criminals to sneak in.
Also the little area you transition into at first in Sanctuary is tiny and causes many problems with model collision with the NPC/PCs in that area. At the very least that little initial area before you are waved into Sanctuary proper should be enlarged.
QuoteSpeaking as someone who has gate-crashed since checkpoint inception, I can agree that the checkpoints look intimidating, but the reality was that it was fairly easy even for under-supplied Lowersmen PC's to break through the gates. I hope that our break-in was purposefully easy- that Sanctuary's security is stretched too thin and the lack of a concerted defense is the result. I don't think anyone trying to bust in or break out has ever been prevented by NPC's, though that doesn't answer the question of why so few people seem to try.
The problem I don't think is breaking into the gates so much as breaking out of them. If you engage in crime in upper it was still possible to -flee- under the shield era. Ours was a suicide charge more or less, Blue. At least for me.
The last PC I heard breaking out of the gates was wanted for murder of an NPC who was slain during a break-out attempt after a fight.
If a PC gets a DM and pickpockets a PC in upper, gets pursued, mob of PCs and NPCs they not only have to get past a handful of NPC humans, an animatron, but the entire mob.
That's a lot of heat to have on the heels for just what should be considered a very petty crime.
I am not sure I understand the problem. It is less than a month ago that I saw a Lowersman make a very ballsy attack on an Upper character inside Starag's, of all places. And for what? The guy had said something annoying in reply to a Sending. That was REALLY COOL and had to have been improvised within minutes. And it made me walk much more warily for days after. And all it took was an angry impulse and a helpful DM. (I am not sure it counts as an 'assassination attempt' as I am fairly sure the perpetrator only wanted to give the victim a beatdown, but still!)
Quote from: Random_White_Guy;n660920That's a lot of heat to have on the heels for just what should be considered a very petty crime.
RwG, you are not taking the true severity of the crime into account.
PC reaction to the news of two dozen NPCs massacred in the Housing Vault: "Meh."
PC reaction to personally being pickpocketed for about a dozen gp's worth, or even at risk of it: "BURN THE WITCH!"
I remember the old days in Mistlocke where EVERY SINGLE PP ATTEMPT got blamed on Molly Smogson. Even when she wasn't online. Fear the outraged player when they lose a little of their precious gold.
I would think the state of heighten security would make perfect sense for a city that experiences some sort of attack from outsiders at least once or twice a month.
So what if it is now harder to attack some one in Upper while they're in Upper? It just means you gotta be more creative in trying to kill them than buff yourselves up into Super Saiyans and kill them from invisibility. Or wear a suicide vest and blow yourselves. You might need multiple suicide vests I guess, one to blow up the gate another to blow up your target. Woah! inclusion of players!? Isn't that what EFU about?
Quote from: CondorHero;n660928You might need multiple suicide vests I guess, one to blow up the gate another to blow up your target. Woah! inclusion of players!? Isn't that what EFU about?
Dude, you can still solo that! You just need to wear two vests! o.O
QuoteSo what if it is now harder to attack some one in Upper while they're in Upper?
Having been the first person to crash the gates I can tell you- The situation is that it isn't an IC protection, it's an OOC one.
The "They let anyone who isn't a thrall in" isn't an argument because it's not about getting in. It's about getting out.
And if you have to risk "Murder charges for killing a gate NPC", PCs strut about goading you to act as if they're invincible even when there's no watch presence on the streets, the entire upper mob of PCs, and some high-risk escape plan? All because a few NPCs that do nothing and a clicking placable are now is unaccessable mid PvP without DM input? That creates an atmosphere of mechanical immunity and hurdles to overcome, something even the Shield never had.
And when it comes to being "proactive criminal" and trying to rob someone, trying to steal a relic you were hired to steal, trying to assassinate someone, trying to steal from a shopkeeper in the market, trying to do anything?
The risk doesn't equal the reward. Criminals have less to do aside from highway robbery because there's a mountain to overcome to steal an apple, NPCs who have bounties on their head via scripting suddenly have higher wanted status and prestige than PC criminals.
Even the Docks/Ziggurat during the height of the fight with the Stygians never had an NPC-ran checkpoint system. An NPC with a barricade sure, but you could try and blitz past it.
Mistlocke during the peak war with the Conclave and riotous fights between Caermyn and Aberdenn? The bridge had NPCs but you could make a run of it.
A placable and some NPCs shouldn't replace the onus on PC pursuers to be successful in capturing a criminal.
I don't care how you phrase it, I don't care what "IC Justification" there is for it.
PCs sit in Sanctuary feeling 100% safe because OOC difficulties have made committing a crime in upper which was already stupidly risky and borderline suicidal, less plausible. It's just not worth it for smaller, pettier crimes. If you want to murder someone, sure, you'll find a way to murder them.
There's an air of security that the shield never had.
And EFU suffers for it.
I'd like to point out there are more than one way to bypass security. No matter how air tight and fool proof a mechanism seems, it is operated by human, and human can be fooled, and even manipulated to work to your advantage.
If you think gates will close, then bribe a guard to keep it from closing. Or invest some time to have a fellow conspirator be in the WaW and have them keep the gate open for your escape. this solution involves: planning, creativity, limited DM involvement and could entangle other players into the plots, FUN!
OR
If you want a secret tunnel, dig one yourself. technically you could tunnel from lower to upper, umber hulks have done it before (oh hey, there's a few of them in the Housing Vault) . Sure there's DM involvement in this, probably need and app of some sort, but it gets players involve too, and time.
I feel that there are IC solution in game that a player can push that would fire off more productive interactions than a PVP fest.
(In my opinion...)
The Warder who does the enthrallment testing talks to anyone, even while they are invisible. Which means he doesn't confirm identities of people - Anyone should be able to get in on that basis alone. Tala is right, they let anyone in.
I'm sure there are brutes that want to enter and exit with a bloodied sword into a town that clearly has sparse security beyond the intimidating front gate, perma-killing everyone in sight NPC and PC alike, defiling and mutilating peoples corpses... But you can do that in the wilds, too, or go attack the people in Lower who have even worse security. It's still attacking Sanctuary as a whole.
It's one way to play the game. Not anything I approve of myself, but not going to deny anyone how they want to play.
I bet the DMs would prefer to just watch the creative ways people come up with killing people in Upper while remaining undetected and walking out the front gate unmolested. How many people have been so quietly assassinated and removes from Sanctuary undetected and walk about freely? I bet the DMs would likely reward that, instead of the DM having to take control of multiple NPCs because one player wanted to make a mess for the sake of making a mess.
I can sympathize with various villains on this. Like SC said, we will take a look at things and talk it over.
On the other hand, it would be a bit silly if city defences were so flimsy any psychopath could run in and out on a murder spree. It's Sanctuary and all, but come on.
Make city defences easier to bypass if you want, but please, PLEASE remove that transition near the exit side of the gate to Sanctuary and leave it locked. It's already sad to see wanted pcs who should be chased by Watchers upon their arrival to the Barbicane go on merrily with banking, shopping, or whatever business they have in town because no law-enforcing pc has spotted them, but it's plain ridiculous when they are chased yet can flee the city with only a click on the placable completely ignoring the gate and the npc who guards it.
I think (since all PvP in Sanctuary/NPC areas should be monitored by DMs) that the DMs lock that transition when something obvious to the guards occur, so the alleged villain needs to break open the gate if they still want to head out that way...
I suppose a DM can't be online all the time but it is up to the players on both sides of a conflict to at least try let those upstairs know of any PvP or possible PvP that may occur prior to actions attempted.
Chasing after a criminal and heading toward the gates you could then shout 'Don't let them escape!' Or simply Stop! And then the DM has the time to hit the pause button and get the NPCs ready for their appropriate response to what is clearly a chase, and not have the gates 'open automatically' via locking the quick transition (which is only there to ease time getting out anyway).
Either that or the Watchers at the gate can be rather apathetic at times to anothers' plight :) but in the case of Wanted PCs, if they are invisible then they can't be identified, the Watchers are hardly expected to keep up to date on every crooks identity, and their job is to keep the enthralled out over there so I assume they aren't too worried unless warned otherwise.
I'd love to see more methods to enter and exit Sanctuary or the Vaults.. With the rise of opportunities to become thralls to various influences, the various checkpoints completely deny any thrall from entering sanctuary or the vaults, or leaving without the direct intervention of a DM, and even then, one would be hard pressed to get past the checkpoints. Offering some alternatives would be nice for those who become thralls.
Watcher pcs can chase a criminal without a dm, at their own risk. That said. naving the gate at least be locked and having pcs who want to get out talk to the npc guard (something that fleeing criminals couldn't do because pcs can't talk to npcs while in "fighting mode") would be a step towards making the whole thing a bit more credible at last.
I would add that, unless I'm wrong, the gate is always locked on both sides unless either one of the npcs on each side opens it, so one could not argue that the npcs sometimes"get lazy", specially when the guy running towards them is fully armed and enchanted. It's a question of abusing the transition.
I am not sure if this is a new feautre or just because of the very long uptime but I'm just gonna kick this out here:
Watcher Zeva Amarya, played by Dinasaur has done something frankly amazing. In the wake of the DM events/etc the gate was open but broken and with the warder gone she started holding up the checkpoint there. Then suddenly older watchers started kicking her favor points so she could get the enthrallment testers using their favor.
I would seriously say how much I appreciate cool PC initiative like this and I think it does a lot for the server in so many ways. I would suggest we keep the checkpoint to the lower ruins NPC driven but alter the front gate to reflect the damage of this event. This reset I've walked in and out countless times and seen everywhere from 1 to 4 watchers standing checkpoint, having cool RP, and stopping everyone that came and went. Even though it could get kind of boring the PC has set up something I feel is very productive and very cool for the sake of RP which I feel fits the spirit of EFU awesomely.
I'd much rather see Watchers standing around the main gate doing checkpoint RP when not chatting among themselves than loitering on the steps to the grotto.
Thanks! I have patience in spades lol, I don't get bored very easily.
These checkpoints have diminished the role Watcher & Warder PCs play in catching thralls and criminals. It would appear that NPCs are doing things PCs could/should be responsible for. Your being in a faction should have some amount of purpose and responsibility, how could it possibly be fun to have NPCs do all the work for you?
I'm locking this thread because things are starting to get repetitive, and a few arguments don't feel in good taste anymore. You all said your piece, and we appreciate the feedback. Whether the gates stay or something else will come along is yet to be decided, but overall you guys need to understand that someone is bound to be "displeased" with whatever we decide.