Fix them.
They were alright before their changes, now they have nothing going for them. A whole pool of HP doesn't mean a damn thing if they don't have the AC / AB to keep up with. Here. I'll even give you a comparison of why barbs just suck right now.
Assume these classes have +1 AC deflection, natural, and a +1 shield, with the best armor available to them, and all have weapon focus feats.
BARBARIAN (10)
HP(max)-140
Max AC(unbuffed)-23 (24 if you have a +1 breastplate ((I know of two in the module, and they are ridiculous to get))
Max AC(buffed, with haste) 25(barkskin)/28(barkskin+shield)/32(barskin/haste/shield)
Max AB(unbuffed) 16/11
Max AB (buffed, no divine potions) 19/14
Max AB (buffed, with divine potions) 22/17
Max AB (buffed, with divine potions + rage, base perk) 25/20 (ac drops to 30 when raging)
Wow, that seems okay! Let's look at a fighter.
MaxHP 120
Max AC(unbuffed)-24, 25 if you have tumble(T) (not so hard to do), 26 with self taught(ST) perk, 27 (vs slashing) with duelist(D) perk
Max AC(buffed, with haste) 26/27(T)/28(ST)/29(D) barkskin, 29/30(T)/31(ST)/32(D) barkskin+shield,33/34(T)/35(ST)/36(Duelist)
Max AB(unbuffed) 16/11, 17/12(ST)
Max AB (buffed, no divine potions) 19/14, 20/15(ST)
Max AB (buffed, with divine potions) 22/17, 23/18(ST)
Max AB (buffed, with divine potions + duelist perk) 24/19
So I have four more ac fully buffed, AND I have expertise for another +5 AC at the cost of 5 AB. Considering that puts me at 40 AC and 19/14 AB fully buffed, that's really damn good!
Oh, and while we're at it, here's a comparison of their saves. We'll assume 18/14/14/10/10/12 for the barb, 14/18/14/10/13/9 for the fighter.
BARB
FORT 7+2(con)= 9
REFLEX 3+2(dex)= 5
WILL 3+0(wis)=3
That's pretty atrocious. Here's a normal ON AVERAGE fighter's saves. We'll assume this is a duelist, for sake of argument.
FIGHTER
FORT 7+2(con)+1(luck of heroes)+1(sturdy soul)=11
REFLEX 3+4(dex)+1(luck of heroes)=8
WILL 3+1(luck of heroes)+1(sturdy soul)+2 (iron will)=7
Wow! And I'm not even going to get into spellcraft cross classing, because I doubt the barbarian has the skill points to put into spellcraft and the fighter does!
So, let's go back up and look at the barb. He's got a lot of AB! That's crazy! 25/20 ab is really fierce. But look at the duelist fighter! He's got 40 ac! That means the barbarian will only him in one in every four strikes.Meanwhile, the duelist fighter holds a strong +19/+14 ab with expertise on, and with his perk up too! The barbarian has 30 AC. That means about 45% of his strikes will hit!!
But that's at their best! Their very best. Look at the numbers without haste on- the barbarian's ac drops to 26 (because he's raging), the duelist drops to 36. So the barb gets about a 20% chance increase to his 1/4th chance to hit, bumping him up to about 1/3rd. Meanwhile, the duelist bumps up to about 65% chance to hit! So the barbarian will be hit roughly 1 attack every round. A turn later, and that's on average about 14 attacks. He only gets 7-8 attacks off on the duelist. And let's not even get into displacement potions and the barbarian's DI or crits- it's completely negligible against the duelists' ferocity. But basically, the duelist is getting twice as many attacks off on the barbarian, has about twice as much saves as the barbarian, and can do everything a barbarian does, but better.
At the end of the day, I just have to ask....
What in the hell does a barbarian have going for them? HP sponges? They just soak up all your healing, and make you wish you had a fighter instead, with their glorious AC. AB? A duelist, or really, just about any fighter, can have just about as much AB a barbarian does, with no penalty to their AC like a barbarian suffers. Saves? What saves? They don't have the feats to spare like a fighter does. In every situation of fighter vs barb, I would pray I would have a fighter over a barb.
And don't get me started on a rogue vs barb, or bard vs barb. They both shit on him, brutally. A rogue can just color spray him, or tangle as needed. A bard can do the same, and endlessly dispel him. You know there is something wrong when I can frontline better as a thug rogue than I can frontline on a barb. That makes zero sense to me- why is a rogue better than being in the front and soaking up damage than the barbarian?
And for the love of god, don't use this argument to justify more nerfs on rogues/fighters/bards That is not the problem. You do not create balance by nerfing everything to the ground. You create balance by buffing things that need fixing. Barbarians need fixes. They can't suddenly become playable because you decided to take away the fighter's ability to cross class into spellcraft, or by taking away the rogue's flat DR reduction. They just can't. That's not how this game works. You need to add benefits to the way Barbarians work. You need to give them love and nourishment, because at the rate they're going, they'll be extinct in the next few game play balances.
At the end of this rant, I'd offer a suggestion or two.
1) For the love of god, and all that is holy, give them +1 breastplate in the module already. Why is it I can't go into orogs, and find a +1 breastplate for my poor barbarian, who's ac is already abysmal? Or seers? Rotlands? Beholders? These quests all have crazy amazing loot, and yet, there's not a single piece of good gear for barbarians in the module, be it from upper end quest, or lower level content.
2)Give them totemic stances, which give massive boons for a whole rest. It works like the monk's stances, except these one's don't require you to app, and they last much longer. Make them situational, make them offer advantages and disadvantages. Maybe one gives you max rage benefits? Maybe one gives you flat DR, at the cost of will? Maybe one gives you massive bonuses to saves, at the cost of 10% of your DI? Something like this that'll make them unique, stand out, and finally be able to complete with his fighter counterpart.
All I'm asking for is some love for a class that used to be really good, and now it's regarded as one of the worst classes of EFU. I don't get why they had to be changed in the first place, and I would gladly appreciate a massive change in direction of them to keep them in the game.
If you can't do something to give them balances, then just remove them from the game, because there's literally no point to play a barbarian at the current mess they are in.
I agree with the general theme of this thread that barbarians have still been over nerfed a bit.
There are some general world balance problems contributing to that though. Gold is much higher than it has ever been so wands are pretty much supreme. Non-wand classes don't get near unlimited access to dispels in pvps to strip opponents so they almost always end up weaker.
Maybe just stop keeping disruptors so rare, maybe even add some NPCs who sell them for reasonable prices around 200-300 gold or so. This would level the playing field some at the least.
Restore them back to their original DI and movespeed. If you want them to be damage sponges add an ability that aids them in doing so. Perhaps an ability that allows them to take damage then use that to deal more damage to their enemies.
Perhaps apply effects similar to the pit-fighter feat to barbarians all the time. Rewarding barbarians that take damage with more damage.
Best barbarian I played really early on was one that got roped into the Watchers by Odelstad and was one with a very small sprinkle of fighter levels (stopped at 2) until he was forced to relevel cause the combination wasn't allowed (didn't know that at the time)
That being said you could probably make the barbarian you want to make with equivalent saving throws/feats with the divine champ prestige wundy. Charisma adds to duration of divine wrath so that's a plus to use alongside rage. #tempus4lyf
Did someone say barb buffs?!?! All my yes.
Quote from: zDark Shadowz;n673345Best barbarian I played really early on was one that got roped into the Watchers by Odelstad and was one with a very small sprinkle of fighter levels (stopped at 2) until he was forced to relevel cause the combination wasn't allowed (didn't know that at the time)
That being said you could probably make the barbarian you want to make with equivalent saving throws/feats with the divine champ prestige wundy. Charisma adds to duration of divine wrath so that's a plus to use alongside rage. #tempus4lyf
I'm not talking about multiclassing a barb. Hell, I can think of at least three different ways off the top my head to make a barb a hundred times better by multiclassing alone. I am talking about a pure barb's ability to stand out and be something unique. The barbarian perks aren't enough- in fact, all of the barb perks generally make you weaker than your normal barbarian perk. There's basically no reason to be a pure barbarian now, why not make them far more comparable to fighters / bards / rogues / rangers? Hell, pure rangers are in a far better spot in barbarians too!
Give them back their 20% movespeed, let them have the ability to wear full plate with no penalty. Give them something to live for, because as they currently stand they have basically nothing going for them that the other classes can't do much better.
Your comparisons are flawed because you've chosen to add in feats and such. That doesn't mean you are wrong however, but the most simple way to break it down is by what I would call "required" stats. Barbarians, Rangers, and Bards all suffer in this area, though Bards have not been nerfed like the other two (from their EFU baseline) and do quite well.
In an ideal world, Barbarians and rangers alike would get their movement speed back and Barbarians would have their DI regardless of rage. The flavor rages are really cool, but too much of the barbarian has been put into these "perks" without much of a payout for using them, at least as intended.
I really like the idea of totemic stances. Movespeed is amazing, but Talir has brought it up in IRC and I tend to agree. Movespeed is pretty strong, and super easy to lame. DI is great because like wundy pointed out: a barbarian is being hit MUCH more often than the other classes that can build for AC.
But I think the question needs to be asked (again, with emphasis since wundy included it in his OP), since it is the absolute key in making any suggestions that are constructive and have a chance of being implemented:
What role does the EFUDM team want barbarians to play?[/u]
One of the biggest breakdowns in balance/design communication is the expectations/thoughts of the user on how something is to be used vs the idea as the designer intended it to be. Without this answer, all we're going to get is both side being frustrated that the other "doesn't get it"
Interesting topic. I agree with wundy`s analysis mostly...even if the examples don't make for the most relevant comparison.
It was a very good change to make the CHA bonus scale to max at 16. Good step.
Removing penalties for heavy armor is a bad idea (duh...) except as part of a perk package. Maybe.
I personally love the more involved solution but I dont like the blanket "totemic" term. I think trances is more appropriate and generalizable to the broad range of barbarian concepts.
You would want that mechanic to be distinct from monk stances, etc. Needs to be unique and cool. Needs to evoke the primal, raw, emotional nature of the barbarian.
Perhaps 5 minute timers, 2.5 minute duration upsides followed by 2.5 duration of downsides. A strategic thing to use in term of gameplay. Fun and engaging for players.
For example, a simple Trance would be "endure pain" +10% DI for durarion +2 fort, -10% DI after -2 fort backlash.
im happy to fleshout some more involved and thematic examples if there is demand. The advantage of such a perk also resides in the fact that DMs have more control over how they enter the gameworld, and players get something to discover and get excited about.
Right so as this has kinda turned into a brainstorm thread, I'll toss this out there.
What if all the barbarian perks did absolutely nothing to your rage and barbarians instead could learn different types of rages like stances? Each rest you'd select which rage you want to use for the day, with the potential of maybe some small passive effects to go along with it while not raging, indicating a battle style or something. Your higher charisma would increase the passive effect and the activated effect of the equipped rage.
So for example, you could have like IRON RAGE, which would disable your rage entirely but offer you additional DI and con, or INFERNO RAGE, which gives you some fire DI passively and some kind of fire themed rage. Just examples.
Maybe when you change your selected rage you lose the ability to use it, so it's not like a battle style so much as changing who you are and how you fight, makes them different from bard songs and monk stances. You don't switch them to a situation, you use the one that suits you and stick to it.
As this has moved away from being a rant and instead gotten constructive, I'll also give some input:
Add more barbarian loot to the module.
-- Absolutely can agree with that and may be the easiest way to give something extra to barbarians. If you want to go further with it you could have items affecting rages such as increasing duration or adding something special at activation (temporary HP, fear, bolstering allies, increased anything).
Totemic stances, trances or similar
-- Could be an idea but someone will have to flesh it all out and make ten or more suggestions that are balanced. Could also be something you discover in-game like monk stances.
More dispel items/svirfneblin disruptors
-- I do not think this being a regular commodity would be a good thing.
Effects happen on being damaged
-- There is really no easy way to determine when a player takes damage script-wise I think.
Restoring back to normal Damage Immunity
-- With the exception of the perks giving 5% less immunity at maximum, but 5% immunity from level 1, I don't know what this means. I do not think we changed standard immunity at all.
Give back +10% movement speed at level 8
-- We've gotten very firm on not having too much movement speed boost. That is not happening.
Barbarian perks do not make the barbarian stronger
-- This is true. When implementing them they were made to be an alternative to the very strong barbarian class(!). Trading some strength for the alternatives the perks brought. They have never been meant as a buff to the barbarian class.
Heavy armor without drawbacks
-- This is a plain no.
Perk allowing heavy armor without drawbacks
-- This used to be Punisher. Was shot down pretty fast after implementation so it is not going to happen.
Vlaid's rage suggestion
-- It's a interesting idea. It will change how things are now and again, you'd need to make a suggestion for what everything should do. Would be something akin to finding the perk in-game and then choosing that perk with the benefits at will before resting.
----------------------
Increasing rage duration
-- This is another suggestion that has occasionally cropped up. Would need further discussion but it could be a thing.
Remove base charisma affecting rage
-- Or the Eagle's Splendor solution. This is not something I would ever want myself brought back, but others on the team may be of a different opinion.
Changing how rage works
-- Not only changing the stat boosts or affects, perhaps rage should reapply itself without recast if you are still in combat? Maybe killing/defeating a foe makes one enter rage? Or other alternatives as has been presented.
By the way guys, how the thread turned out is more like how a suggestion thread should be. Work with each other to figure out improvements. Keep the tone polite.
Quote from: Pentaxius;n673399... Perhaps 5 minute timers, 2.5 minute duration upsides followed by 2.5 duration of downsides. A strategic thing to use in term of gameplay. Fun and engaging for players.
For example, a simple Trance would be "endure pain" +10% DI for duration +2 fort, -10% DI after -2 fort backlash...
I really liked this, it would make playing barbarians very exciting, rage with timer and downside after the frenzy. The backlash system probably could be borrowed from the drugs system. (or perhaps custom barbarian drugs could use to enhance the rage, much like viking berserkers allegedly used mushrooms for such).
Quote from: Vlaid;n673399... What if all the barbarian perks did absolutely nothing to your rage and barbarians instead could learn different types of rages like stances? Each rest you'd select which rage you want to use for the day, with the potential of maybe some small passive effects to go along with it while not raging, indicating a battle style or something. Your higher charisma would increase the passive effect and the activated effect of the equipped rage.
So for example, you could have like IRON RAGE, which would disable your rage entirely but offer you additional DI and con, or INFERNO RAGE, which gives you some fire DI passively and some kind of fire themed rage. Just examples.
Maybe when you change your selected rage you lose the ability to use it, so it's not like a battle style so much as changing who you are and how you fight, makes them different from bard songs and monk stances. You don't switch them to a situation, you use the one that suits you and stick to it....
The two above ideas might work combined, the activated effect of the rage having a timer, also, having these 'trances' or 'rages' changed/acquired through special things/encounters found, mostly related to nature and savagery (ritual with druids could unlock some rage).
I would also want to see a second kind of rage, one that has a chance of triggering every time you take a hit or spent too long fighting without raging, aside from the inducible rage.
Another aspect of Barbarians that I always loved was the potential hatred for magic, 'tricks', etc, so I'd love to see the barbarians own version of the Ascetic/RSD, maybe something even more radical as in can't even wear magical items, and the need to destroy magical items to keep his strength (as in the addiction system). An alternative D&D class called "Foresaker" has a similar idea, here's the link (//%22https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Forsaker_(3.5e_Class)%22)
To me when I think of a Barbarian I think of a vandal, a madman, a lone figure fending off a horde of foes in an insane but short term fury and giant weapons or blitzing with a rusty axe and a barrel lid shield. A few short Ideas:
Give Barbarians the ability to use AOE abilities.
Sure, Bard has the swordplay and buffs and disabiling songs and dispels. And people keep arguing that Fighter can go toe to toe with anything thanks to duelist. Barbarian rages and blitzes into a mob, hacks and slashes and brutalizes and then through some totemic juju a volcano erupts and fire decimates the foes he's been hacking and slashing at. Slamming his giant axe into the dirt with raw primal force a small scale earthquake shakes and shatters the foes in the immediate area.
If we're gonna be deconstructing barbarians let's make them sort of the Divine-Primal hybrid warrior like how Bard is a hybrid of Arcane Buff Magic and Combat. Like how Paladin is a mix of Cleric and Fighter with anti-undead leaning, let's make them a mix of Druid and Fighter with AoE.
STOMP and cave rocks fall.
SLAM and fire gushes out from the walls.
HAMMER and water shoots up from underground source.
...Plus someone shooting lightning by static slamming something would just be cool I think. Evocaiton is fun and not enough stuff does that haha.
Give Barbarians the ability to Dual Wield without size limits
Not sure if it's even possible with our NWN juju but I always felt a small pang of agony to see Gaesirc the Unyielding wielding two Battle-Axes seeing something I know PCs have tried in the past but were unable to successfully pull off. A monkey-grip style thing allowing larger weapons to be wielded by the larger more primal madmen would be really cool I think. Everyone else is wielding rapiers and this dude comes through with two GIANT WARHAMMERS.
Give every barbarian regardless of perk, native 5/2 DR while in Rage mode
The loinclothe barbarian is a classic EFU trope with PCs usually getting 1/5 DR loincloth and turning from someone who gets their ass kicked a lot to a burly rumbler but then there's also folks who prefer to go the medium-armor rocking viking style.
Adding the ability for Barbarians to use their large HP pools + the ability to shrug off DR + the ability to use their DI would make them far more tank style but in a different method than Fighters. 1/5 DR is super common but it's also overcomable by anyone and everyone. I think it'd add some legimitmacy to the class if they received 5/2. That still gives Lycans the edge of having 10/1 5/2 and shirking off huge heaps of damage but this shows that Barbarians are MONSTROUS in their ability to shrug off damage and take on entire foes as madmen wearing scraps of armor or loinclothes.
That means when you hear a barbarian rage roar there's some terror that come into people's minds. That someone is going to see a rare feat of physical fury and rampage, and that this son of a bitch is gonna be tough to take down for the short-term burst.
Make them the other class to use Drugs besides RSD
Berserk and other tales of lore had Barbarian-types using all kinds of frenzy inducing drugs for an "Edge". When Thanatol was a thing it was always the barbarian types who flocked to it but I think if we take the existing drug system and add a Barbarian Caveat it could boost things as an additional sort of buff. Red Smile, Junksnuff, Bloodhaze, Substabnce etc. Give all of these things exponentially stronger powers in the hands of a barbarian class and maybe lessen the addiction rate.
Quote from: Talir;n673403As this has moved away from being a rant and instead gotten constructive, I'll also give some input:
More dispel items/svirfneblin disruptors
-- I do not think this being a regular commodity would be a good thing.
Give back +10% movement speed at level 8
-- We've gotten very firm on not having too much movement speed boost. That is not happening.
Heavy armor without drawbacks
-- This is a plain no.
These three I'll contest you on. Dispel items for pure barbarians and fighters are essentially necessary. If they are fighting a rogue or bard with a dispel wand, they are basically going to lose - not a single fighter or barbarian I know can keep up with wasting their time on refreshing potions and getting attacked by a rogue / bard at the same time. They just lose. Any time you watch a rogue fight a fighter or barb, they basically have it in the bag, unless the fighter gets extremely lucky and hardly gets dispelled. Dispel items for THESE TWO CLASSES ONLY would help immensely.
We are in a meta that relies on gold for supplies, which means wands are far more accessible to the playerbase. If wands are more accessible, any arcane / divine based class will hold an advantage over those classes that can't (which are barbarians, monks, and fighters). Adding more of dispel throwables to the module will help them last a better chance. Just make it OUB Fighter/Barb/Monks.
+10% Movespeed isn't anything. It doesn't stack with haste or retreats, it gives you a reason to get 8 barbarian. There are already multiple ways to get 20% movespeed, like dipping into ranger levels, or if you wanted, go for four rogue levels and get 5% movespeed added to your base ten. A pure monk can get 30% movespeed, and that STACKS with hastes and retreats. Who cares about 20% movespeed for a pure barbarian? They don't have much else going for them to stay pure.
Full plate armor with no drawbacks. This is what I get for wearing full plate over +1 breastplate (which there are two in the module, and extremely hard to get) AND investing my skill points into cross classing into tumble- Nothing. I get no bonus AC. I get no bonus effects. I just get more armor check penalties, and I have to invest a feat to just get the same AC as my fighter counterpart, instead of investing into tumble and hoping to god I get a +1 breastplate. I don't know why this is a problem. There is literally no difference for wearing a fullplate or doing the breastplate +1 and tumble combo. MAYBE the difference is I use up a feat instead of skills? I don't know why this is a problem? Like, if I wanted to invest into a full plate I should be able to be a full plate barbarian... I guess the only argument here is if you start getting into multiclassing shennanigans, but if that's the case, why not just do it like the bard perk? If you multiclass, you lose your barbarian benefits.
I like the idea of trances, seems more in line with what a barbarian rage is actually like in my mind, not necessarily about 'getting angry' but entering a state of mind / focus that lets you ignore the frivolous things like pain and missing limbs.
Reminds me of how Drizzt's Hunter mode was written, and another story outside of FR setting I can't recall the name of where barbarians were like extremely talented warriors that repeatedly changed the tempo of their attacks to throw their enemies off.
This is another thing I was thinking of for barbarians, maybe trial it as a perk first and see how it goes?
Is it possible to have the barbarian rage scripted something along the lines of-
You enter rage, and a numeric value is set on the character equal to the (normal) duration of your rage. Rage starts off at the usual bonuses but a script begins running checks to 'turn off' rage each round rather than its usual expiry mechanism, this check could start at 0 and increases by +1 each round and only turns off rage once this value equals, or is higher than, the initial numeric value set when rage began.
Every time you kill (or knock out?) an enemy, this initial rage duration value could then increase by a number of rounds, maybe a random value between 1 and Con or Cha modifier, or dependant on the HD/Level of the creature KO'd/killed, effectively extending the duration of the rage.
You now have a barbarian that enters rage and gets rewarded for maintaining the momentum of the battle, setting the pace in a potentially dangerous way, maybe even throw in an additional bonus to reward barbarians once that initial rage duration number has been increased to a certain amount, a visual effect, maybe mild regen or temporary HP etc.
A secondary set of values could be set up alongside those expiration round checks where if a barbarian is not in combat for a duration equal to their standard rage duration it will also expire, using incremental integers that reset to 0 if he's in combat again (in case a massive horde of goblins has been Great Cleaved to death and that duration value increased too high)
Elaborating on the idea of barbarians having bonuses based on HP lost, I think it would be fun to see all barbs get bonuses the more damage they take. It would work like this:
Gain bonuses depending on hitpoint percentage:
> 70% gain +1 AC, 5% speed.
> 40% gain +1 AC, +1 Universal, 5% speed.
Double barbarian damage immunity while raging and extend the duration by charisma modifier.
I love barbarians. I came up with that base package years ago... I think looking at them from a level 10 dueling perspective is not the right way to go. Ultimately there are 10,000 things that decide pvp and a perfect world slug fest is not one of them, the barbarian cleaning up your back line with a great axe and crushing face while your dueling fighter helplessly spends 8 rounds buffing before being dispelled and crushed... idk. I think these fights seldom exist in a vacuum, and when they do, maybe in a duel the duelist fighter should cripple the barbarian unless he gets the lucky 76 damage greataxe crit.
Fundamentally I think their problem comes down to supplies and sustain. Chances are you will never see a level 10 barbarian...
Healing
1.) slow passive healing out of combat?
2.) bonus to potion effectiveness
3.) herb bonus? Failure on 5?
Saves
1.) barbarian only loot? Unfortunate when loot is must have and you can't partake in the randomness of efu loot but maybe easy solution
2.) +1-2 to all saves at 8 depending on perk
3.) ??
Module
1.) return of svirfneblin defense device, aka THE EqUALIZER. Or similar items available mostly on low level quests. Dispel (5) and confusion charges. It's like giving all PCs a gun and makes being a pvp god way less possible.
Since a huge portion of the barb problem is lack of feats, why not give them save feats and maybe some others as they level up? Hell, give them toughness for free at level 1 just to reinforce the "hp sponge" concept?
Why not just remove the powerfull fighter perks? Problem solved.
In my opinion the strength of the barbarian is really all just 'while they are raging' which is going to be limited to 3x uses per rest for most players, which is why I suggested the way to extend duration through maintaining the pressure in battle.
If you look at it from the saving throws/ feats viewpoint, the Great Fortitude and Iron Will you can't afford to spend feats on are acquired through raging (+2-4 fortitude via con, +2 to will)
If you look at it from the damage side, you get more than weapon specialization would have granted as a fighter through the strength bonus +2- +4 modifier (and a little bit more for raging with a large weapon)
From the hitpoint side the base HP increases by another 2-4 per level so assuming both fighter and barbarian picked 14 con and toughness and neither are forcing HP rerolls its fighters 8-13 vs a raging barbarians 11-17 to 13-19.
The perks are there if you want to flavour the rages differently, but the standard rage let's you match and exceed a fighter at everything except AC, and barbarians can class skill Taunt that down if you're going directly toe to toe with a fighter. -6 AC
Barbarians get 4 skillpoints per level, if human and 10 intelligence that's enough for Concentration (cross-classed but increased during rage) discipline, listen, taunt & tumble (cross-classed), or you can sub out basic listen skill for that Spellcraft.
Quote from: Bacon_Cheese_Burger;n673450Why not just remove the powerfull fighter perks? Problem solved.
Again, I must suggest that nerfing other strong things to make balance changes doesn't help. Buffing is better than nerfing- it's an essential fact of video game development. If we start nerfing fighters, they start to fall off farther than they already have. Fighters arent even at the top of the power scale, that title goes to bards and rogues at the moment, not including wizards. And basically there's no reason to nerf these classes either, because to do that you'd essentially gimp these two classes to a point of unplayability, which is where barbarians are at currently.
Making barbarians stronger, with the current suggestions in this thread, would help them get back into the game and be up to bar to compete. That's what we need to do.
Static barbarian bonuses that could help round out the class;
Level 1: Bonus Feat: Toughness, less than 40% HP offers +1 AB and +1 AC.
Level 5: Less than 40% HP now also offers +2 Reflex and 10% physical damage immunity.
Level 8: +2 Will, less than 40% HP now offers an additional +1 AB and +1 AC.
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Barbarian friendly equipment would also be very beneficial. +1 breastplate and chainmail used to be pretty common in previous chapters. They are basically non-existent now.
Quote from: Decimate_The_Weak;n673522Static barbarian bonuses that could help round out the class;
Level 1: Bonus Feat: Toughness, less than 40% HP offers +1 AB and +1 AC.
Level 5: Less than 40% HP now also offers +2 Reflex and 10% physical damage immunity.
Level 8: +2 Will, less than 40% HP now offers an additional +1 AB and +1 AC.
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Barbarian friendly equipment would also be very beneficial. +1 breastplate and chainmail used to be pretty common in previous chapters. They are basically non-existent now.
This is actually a pretty interesting way to make barbarians stronger. More health they are missing the more resilient and dangerous they get.
Quote from: Vlaid;n673527This is actually a pretty interesting way to make barbarians stronger. More health they are missing the more resilient and dangerous they get.
Seconded. It's a bit like the Pit Fighter perk that way. The closer you drive them to the brink, the harder they fight. I really like this. :)
Unfortunately Talir mentioned in IRC that it is entirely too difficult to track when PCs take damage for any kind of percentage based benefit gains.
That would be one sweet perk or general barbarian template DTW!
I agree with strengthening the core class at this point and not trying to just add more perks into the pool. Along with the theme DTW provided, here are some other ideas to possibly add in there
- Savage Path - The Barbarian is able to shatter the effects of any mind effecting spell through sheer instinct 1/rest/4levels. (Triggered on a failed will save)
- add 5/10/15% elemental immunity at levels 3/6/9 so long as they remain pure
- Bonus to climbing and access to discipline / listen based tracking to represent their affinity with the wilds
- Slow bleedout ability (double rolls for chance of success?) due to resilience
- Break snare - Being accustomed to travel the wilds, the Barbarian has learned to break free of most entangling effects. Freedom of movement for 1 round once / day
Spring attack feat for free to represent their mobility in combat compared to a "plate" fighter
etc
Quote from: Vlaid;n673535Unfortunately Talir mentioned in IRC that it is entirely too difficult to track when PCs take damage for any kind of percentage based benefit gains.
Maybe switch the burden of tracking to the player then? The Pit Fighter perk has a special ability that works like this, only it is set off by the player. The more badly hurt the character is, the more bonuses it gets, and lasts for a set duration. This new barbarian ability could work the same way and with full bonuses only available if the barb is at 40% HP or below when used.
If anything there should DEFINITELY be more barbarian-themed loot. The rare pieces I've seen meant for barbarians aren't even that good.
Perhaps a quest that's focused on a wildman/barbarian theme? It could be like the mines where there's random instances, each with their own theme and loot. One could be jungle/wilderness, another crazed bandits, etc. Or have a solo-barbarian quest or random explorable like the reliquary that drops like awesome barbarian gear.
As for lootstuffs, I'd loooove to see items that extend rage, +1 5/2 armor, actually good 2handers that aren't dm-given, maybe something that adds a bit more DI. Or hell, even something that completely changes your rage or adds bonuses, kind of like the special turn undead stuff you can rarely see for cleeics.
I like that idea.
Add player tool similar to the pit fighter to bypass the nwn limitations. Make it instant use, too.
Increase DI, move speed, AB, and will.
The problem with "barb loot" is that the only way to do that is some awkward and hamfisted way of making special items that only pure barbs can equip, and for anyone else they immediately unequip, similar to a non relic guardian PC trying to equip a relic. Otherwise, it just reinforces the "The best way to barbarian is to multiclass" and does nothing for making pure barbs an attractive and viable option, which is the point of this thread.
Honestly, I'd be totally cool with them making a "totem" system similar to relics but without the messy and awkward requirement of domains. DMs could then seed fairly powerful loot for pure barbs but limit them to 1 totem each like with relics, allowing a barb to get more DI, maybe some stat buffs or bonus feats appropriate to the theme of the totem in a way the DMs can pretty easily modify, buff, nerf, or specifically reward flavorful barbs?
Edit:
On the topic of "Buffs based on damage they take:"
What if a scripted "Onhit:Custom Spell()" was added as a temp property armor (or skins? I don't remember if that worked?) that basically added a number to a counter every time a barb was hit by a hostile pc or npc, and these numbers basically add up to "rage tiers." and diminishes the counter naturally over a few rounds if the counter hasn't risen. So, a barb taking a ton of hits would accrue some bonuses, and as combat ends and/or slows and the amount of successful hits against the barb goes down, his bonuses are also "winding down" so to speak. Certain perks could flip this, and be an onhit power on the weapon instead, allowing the barb to "ramp up" his attack, growing stronger as the he rocks out some carnage?
When a barbarian is raging, they are epic.
I think the current rages could be changed to ancestral totem items to be collected, like bard songs, with the select background perk giving that specific one at the beginning to be able to attune to.
Sometimes you might want to go Gore Reaver and butcher numerous foes, healing continuously, or switch to standard for PVP (+2-4 fort +2 will compensates for lack of saving throw feats nicely), or go Spirit Caller and turn back the tide of an army upon itself.
Being able to change that choice might be nice... greater versions of the ancestral totems for extended durations would be a must though, since the quests on EFU can get quite long sometimes. Tie in appropriate spells like Battle Cry, Aura of Vitality, Blood Frenzy, Battletide etc to be used.
First paragraph on the wiki says these are what they use. (In 5e) http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Barbarian
Another suggestion: Just changing Blood Frenzy potions to mimic the barbarians current rage/perk rather than the default spell would be a good way to give them more uses of rage as well, and a place to funnel their money.
A lot of great suggestions here, in addition to some of the above I'd very much like to see barbarian rage become a free action. Meaning rage applies immediately without a hand waving animation and can be done mid swing or while running without interruption.
That'd be a good addition! Playertool activation if possible.
I am actually in love with the suggestion of making barbarian a druid-fighter hybrid but that is clearly ranger.
However, I would love to see each rage do an AOE attack with flavor text.
On the effect of each rage it would do an aoe such as Craven throwing sand around, Artic Warrior freezing foes, and Spirit Caller doing a strength drain aoe. This would not be a long effect like bard song but it would an instant attack when rage is activated.
If this would make the barbarian rage too much like a bard song the alternative is setting up player tools for special barbarian attacks.
I think even a boost in DI and some sort of DR on the base barbarian template would go a long way.
Bump up DI on all barbarians to 10/15/20 progression and maybe at 7 levels of pure barbarian you could gain 2/- Physical Damage Resistance similar to the 'Thug' L8 rogue perk. I think it stacks with blur and it would allow barbarians to in essence shrug off more blows that cannot be bypassed by simple magic weapon.
Quote from: wundyweiss;n673419+10% Movespeed isn't anything. It doesn't stack with haste or retreats
Just to clarify on what Wundy said: you can't go over 50% movement rate no matter what abilities you use unless you have monk levels. It's a NWN cap thing so hasted barbs aren't moving at 60% speed in vanilla, they're still at 50% like everyone else who gets haste.
Passive movement speed enables some very effective kiting tactics, which Drogor Splints was notorious for in early EFU:R on his Craven barbarian. Although it shouldn't be mathematically true, I've seen people complain that they need to drink Retreat and Haste potions just to keep up with my unbuffed bard.
I'll submit some ideas for barbarian battle trances when I get home from work.
I am especially partial to Vlaid's "selectable rages" idea, though...
Something that I have seen elsewhere to quite some success is upping the number of times you can rage per day. Instead of getting rages at levels 1, 4, 8, it instead is 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10. It keeps a steady progression, and gives barbs more versatility in when they want to use their rages, instead of just saving it (metagaming it) for the boss on a quest.
Saving rage / potions / perks and healing fully for a 'final boss' is kind of metagamey sure, but one must employ a suspension of disbelief or die from that double-crit x3 weapon.
I think the perks themselves could use adjusting because the other class perks are undeniably better.
Even reverting them back to their old selves wouldn't fully do it for them. They were great in efu:a for two reasons:
- They could not be dispelled much while achieving +12/+12 due to obtaining +12/+12 mostly from buffed charisma and rage which would not decrease if your charisma went down during the rage effect.
- The supply meta was such that soaking up hp was fine because you could easily get back 40 or so csw a day to keep yourself going and 10+ blurs so you could keep yourself at perma 5/+1 for everything.
Essentially these nerfs in a bubble away from the efu:r setting don't seem too severe, however when you look at what barbarian can do with this more tame supply meta compared to every other class they fall short drastically.
In my mind barbarians should get a choice of +10% in ONE chosen(Bludgeoning, Piercing, Slashing) resistance OR +20% -ALL- elemental resist OR 5/+1 dr when they hit 8 to put them up to scale with the other classes
Before the term "you guys seem to like overpowered stuff" thrown out. I'd like to note that if everything is equally "overpowered" its all balanced. So essentially if you see something that is way more powerful than the other classes. I guarantee you, other people will be much happier if you make them as strong as that thing, rather than nerfing that one thing. At the end of the day the goal of efu is about creating a fun environment after all.
Would be too much to universally grant barbarians feats like Terrifying Rage (//%22http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Terrifying_rage%22) and Thundering Rage (//%22http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Thundering_rage%22)? They could grant a bit more flavor and impact to a barbarian's worrisomely low number of Rages. And at least Terrifying Rage seems to be within the acceptable bounds of power.
1d3 rounds of fear or a Doom effect doesn't seem very dangerous. Free "Massive Criticals: 2d6," however, might be alarming when you consider the potential use of a rapier, scimitar, or falchion.
If you are disinclined to grant it as a general upgrade to all barbarians, I might suggest it as an additon to a particular perk...
Quote from: birkinisbackin2017;n675013Before the term "you guys seem to like overpowered stuff" thrown out. I'd like to note that if everything is equally "overpowered" its all balanced. So essentially if you see something that is way more powerful than the other classes. I guarantee you, other people will be much happier if you make them as strong as that thing, rather than nerfing that one thing. At the end of the day the goal of efu is about creating a fun environment after all.
This mentality is key in most competitive games and keep an evolving meta. EFU despite its roleplay nature, still follows the mechanical rules. When something is overpowered it allows new counter strategies and thus the meta evolves. However in the case of EFU the answer has been to nerf the viable options rather than to buff opposing options. This end result is few viable strategies rather than endless powerful strategies.
I'm generally of a mind to agree. Nerfing something fun isn't necessarily the answer as much as buffing something weak and barbarian desperately needed this gear buff. It looks great and I think it will help the class be a lot more competitive with the plate classes.
That's just untrue. In the vast majority of cases EFU has buffed weak classes rather than nerfing strong ones. (Wizards would be limited to cantrips by now, if rogues were still vanilla). This is great and laudable.
The change in the charisma scaling increments was a good and sound change.
However, I'd rather see a rise in perk DI compared to breast plates with DI bonuses.
Ultimately my favorite idea is still the masochism one. Having a similar effect trigger on rage would be thematically fitting and fun. And could apply to all barbarians.
If the masochism spell could be permanently cast upon the barbarian it could work. Is that possible?
No I don't think so. There is no cheap way to keep track of a PC's HP. That's why linking it to rage (or a player tool) works. But not as a passive ability...
If on rage cast masochism it could work since it would not be permanent. If not that maybe a player tool could work? With the higher your level the more uses you get?
Lv1 Masochism (3) 1/day
Lv5 Masochism (3) 3/day
Lv8 Masochism (3) 5/day
It would be awesome to see people run in fear when the barb uses it.
Just have it cast "on rage" for the duration of the rage.
Also, fix it to add AB as its supposed to. Right now nobody uses the spell because it's not working as intended.
But the concept is great, and it fits the class very nicely.