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Small alignment shifts are always really cool things, at least to me. I got a lawful point for helping to apprehend someone and then defending him in trial, which was really cool to see and honestly made me feel awesome - without even bringing XP into the equation! More of these would be really cool, I think, for relevant character actions. Just a suggestion... and if this is already happening, feel free to ignore it. Just thought I'd offer some feedback.

The big problem with alignment shifts is some PCs love them and embrace them and others blow a gasket and threaten to email anthrax to the DM staff because they don't feel an action deserved an alignment shift.

I imagine if you ask a DM for an alignment shift for certain actions they'll oblige but on the whole it often just seems like more headache than merit.

Ask five D&D players about an alignment-related issue and you'll get six answers. It's easily one of the most problematic issues with the game. There's a good reason only a handful of other RPGs have tried an alignment system, and those did it only because they were explicitly in dialogue with some version of D&D.

Even with extensive public guidelines, you're still not going to have people seeing eye-to-eye on alignment. Honestly, as little as I like D&D4E, one of the things they did right was to de-emphasize alignment for everyone and everything that doesn't rely on it for some mechanical function.

While EFU tries to promote a more fluid attitude to alignment shifts, and we really do agree that they should be something that can and should be altered over time, they are a terrible headache and a painful minefield for the most part.

Quote from: Random_White_Guy;361082The big problem with alignment shifts is some PCs love them and embrace them and others blow a gasket and threaten to email anthrax to the DM staff because they don't feel an action deserved an alignment shift.

I imagine if you ask a DM for an alignment shift for certain actions they'll oblige but on the whole it often just seems like more headache than merit.

That's too bad. For the record, I don't mind at all and actually appreciate it.

Lial gave me 2 evil points for questing with evil PCs and I threatened to go Zodiac Killer on him.

A bit of a window into the world of a DM who has routinely given out alignment shifts for what I see as good roleplay: it can be a trial. Oftentimes people take being issued alignment shifts as a suggestion that they are somehow roleplaying badly, or against their alignment, or have somehow angered the DMs. At times I people have gotten extremely angry with me even for small shifts.

"Painful minefield", as AMB described it, is but the half of it. That said, I have a few criteria I try to stick to, as alignment is part of a PC's development.

When I hand out alignment shifts, I usually employ one of two rationales. The first is that your PC has done something very recently that would cause the shift; murdering that guy, defending that criminal, or standing in front of alchemist's fire barrels to defend a child. Those get you points for a specific action you undertook which was (to my mind) good, evil, lawful, or chaotic. They can range from anything from one or two points to ten to twenty, depending on the gravity of the action and the degree to which it differed from your current alignment! A PC with Good/Evil (95) is going to have a much harder time shifting their alignment toward Good/Evil (100), even with righteous acts, than a PC with Good/Evil (25).

The other time I make alignment changes is when I see continual actions over time that suggest a trend. For example, managing a lawful group of dwarfs if you were a CN dwarfen barbarian would get you moved toward the lawful spectrum of things slowly but surely, if indeed you were adhering to those beliefs and aims.

I find it annoying at times to hand out these shifts because it often results in a long-winded discussion with people who are legitimately angry about what I have done! Questions asking for explanation are fine, arguing about the shift is not. Almost nothing makes me less interested in following the course of a PC's personal development than this. So, as a general service message:

If your alignment has been shifted, consider it a compliment to your roleplay and as an indication that a DM has been keeping an eye on your PC, even if it is not the change that you wanted or thought was appropriate!

... Personally I would view a DM shifting my alignment as their own insight into my character's actions and persona and would fully welcome it.

Alignment, the most mechanically worthless part of a PC, is the most zealously guarded... I don't understand EFU's player base sometimes.

Alignment is mostly guarded for two reasons.

#1: Some classes can lose powers by losing their alignment, prime example paladin.


#2: People tend to want to do evil things for the possibility of loot despite not wanting to play an evil character (I did the opposite for the first time the other day and got 5 good points! Wow!)


Several times in the career's of my characters I have done something, heinous and have received -50- evil points for one momentary action.

If were having a suggestion topic about alignment, I think there should be some kind of cap the dms can shift yours at any one time barring having a piece of your brain cut out.

I will gladly hand out alignment shifts that are greater than 20 points for actions worthy of the change and there will never be such a cap, fortunately.

I may inquire why if the reason wasn't fully obvious (like I once got 5 chaos points on my paladin for loitering when told to piss off), but other than that, all is good.

(I did the opposite for the first time the other day and got 5 good points! Wow!)

One of my evil PCs of the past was handed a bunch of Good Points when trying to look as someone she wasn't.

I bet she was turning good, the malicious wretch.

And yes! I was surprised, but really enjoyed the little shift.

I also wish there would be more alignment shifts and am stunned to hear that such extreme reactions as described above are not uncommon.

As already covered, alignment shifts are overlooked mostly because players get in a huff if you give them alignment points, and we don't want that headache.

But this is only a problem because everyone has a misunderstanding over what an alignment is. People think you have to "play your alignment", so by doing something that incurs a shift away from your starting alignment, players are under the impression they're being told they've done something wrong.

That is all a misconception of what alignment is. You don't play your alignment, you play your character. Your alignment just tracks where your character is at that point in their lifetime for mechanical purposes and to give us a sense of the balance of your character's actions up until that point. In virtually every case your alignment is a reflection of your character, your character is not a reflection of their alignment.

I don't mind alignment shifts anymore like I used to. You don't have to play differently because your alignment is changed but quite the contrary. Play it any way you'll like!


Having said that, alignment shifts are almost always one frame of a much larger picture. Some DMs do shift regularly,  some never do, and then one dm will shift you 2 pnts where the other would shift you 15.

I got 20 points to evil on a CG character for using rats to spring a special trap about a year and a half ago. That was something which went up for a more heated discussion than I care to admit, and that was that. I felt criticised for the way in which I employed the de-trapper 2000 there. What lesson I took from it was to roll with the 'punches', and don't play your character differently from how you feel he is developing. Eventually DMs will take notice, and particularly if you mention it in that OOC journal they keep blabbering about ;-).

Alignment shifts are good, especially when they make sense.  BUT!!!  An example from person experience from a long gone DM, once my character made a joke to my characters side kick when experimenting with the Machine.  I suggested, joking, he should get into a device that 'might' hurt him.  I got evil points.  My point is, if a DM isn't actively watching your character they might not understand your characters relationships or much about him, jump on see you doing 1 thing and out of context BAM alignment shift.

So if you murder 50 babies yes, if you save people from a burning house yes, but sometimes they don't make sense and THATS when players are like uhh wtf?

We were discussing this last night on irc. I generally like alignment shifts, but I do remember a case where I flipped out because of one.

I think they are particularly problematic with the Paladin class, because unlike any other class it is an indictment that you are not adhereing to the almighty code. This is compounded by the fact that Paladins are often placed in difficult moral dilemmas where the right thing to do is completely subjective, even to the DMs.

For propriety's sake, gimme all the alignment shifts!

QuoteI think they are particularly problematic with the Paladin class,  because unlike any other class it is an indictment that you are not  adhereing to the almighty code. This is compounded by the fact that  Paladins are often placed in difficult moral dilemmas where the right  thing to do is completely subjective, even to the DMs.

Playing a Paladin is incredibly difficult, succeeding as one can be even more difficult. I will gladly make one fall for acts which are questionable. Expect to be thrust into morally questionable circumstances and be forced to take the hard road or fail in your oaths.

A Paladin is a case where there is always an absolute good, with minor variations relating to the doctrine of the god, where ends do not justify the means.

If you are playing a Paladin and a DM causes you to fall from grace, this is because we have noticed something extremely interesting that you have done and intend to follow up on it. Reacting poorly will leave you ignored, with your PC's career likely ending ignominiously, because the last thing I want to do with my time is argue with someone OOCly about morality ingame.

Falling is a plot-hook, more often than not.

I have to address an issue and comment towards anyone who is uncomfortable with alignment shifts. Folks, just look at it this way. Alignment shifts should be seen as  nothing more than noticeable marks in your character developing.

My  recently-deceased sorceress Nathanya was Neutral Good right up until  the events that lead into her descent into darkness. She went from  NEUTRAL GOOD to CHAOTIC EVUL in, like, two weeks. How did this happen?  She acted on impulse constantly, started to lie left and right (which is  chaotic by nature), committed unspeakable acts of evil that transcended  murder; yet, believe it or not, still did not see herself as a bad  person. Intentions and character mentality are completely irrelevant in  the alignment system. The universe judges you by your acts and decisions  in the setting; you do something evil, it doesn't matter WHY you did  it; you could kill a man to save a million children, it's still an evil  act.

Now that this has been established, if your character is  starting to stray from an alignment that your class does not agree with,  that's not the DMs' fault; your character made that choice because you  decided that is what your character would do. That doesn't mean it is  your fault either; something happened to your character to change their  mentality or push them towards this new mindset.

Example: A  paladin smites an evil villain who trys to turn himself in for murdering  innocent people. You get good points, but you also get chaotic points,  as what you did was considered unlawful as far as society is concerned  (ideally, the paladin would've turned him in and prosecuted him if he  truly wished him to pay for his crimes). The alignment change is  character development; your paladin came across a villain so heinous and  despicable that he/she simply could not risk letting the man walk free;  a noticeable stray from the law as your character was uncertain the law  would dispense some justice (remember, law and justice are two separate  things) or too impatient to wait for it.

Now, in most cases,  your character has a chance to recover and redeem themselves from these  strays (we all screw up sometimes, don't we?); if you, as a player, do  not WANT your character to continue down this path (people are inclined  to feel guilty about their actions), nothing is stopping your character  from deciding to do so (most of the time anyway). However, depending on  your character's traits, current events, and other agents of character  development, your toon can slowly but surely (or perhaps quickly,  depending on the magnitude of your actions) turn into someone completely  different; someone you as the player NEVER imagined would end up  playing on this character.

This is the beauty of the D&D  alignment system, and why I love it so much. I always enjoy getting  notices of my character's development; it shows that my character has  either changed or, if you're actually going the direction you WANT your  alignment to go (100 lawful 100 good for a paladin), that your character  is staying true to their beliefs and values when there's so many  reasons not to (and let's be honest, the setup for this server alone  gives us PLENTY of reason to develop in different ways).

If any  players are confused as to WHY they got an alignment shift, they should  perhaps think long and hard about the four cornerstones of the alignment  system and why what they did might have pulled them towards one over  another. Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos. The universe in D&D is pretty black and white on this.

Quote from: LiAlH4;361245A Paladin is a case where there is always an absolute good, with minor variations relating to the doctrine of the god, where ends do not justify the means.

Without making this all about this one particular instance. I was handed some evil points for not confronting/attacking a necromancer. The issue was, necromancy was legal at the time and place where it was happening. And while Lathlander's law trumps that of mortals, I didn't feel at the time the most good could be done by needlessly jumping into the trap, breaking the law and likely sabotaging my future plans by being arrested or executed, which I believe was fully the intent of said necromancer.

My paladin did not fall- but rather went on to be probably my more successful characters on EFU:A. More then anything I was annoyed that the DM who gave me the points, didn't seem to understand that I had given such circumstances serious thought and acted in the way I felt most appropriate to the character. He simply told me I was wrong (maybe I was wrong?).

All water under the bridge, but this is why alignment shifts can sometimes be taken personally. Nobody wants to be told they are not playing their character correctly.

Edit:

In the many years of playing with you all, I've had tons of alignment shifts. This was the -one- exception to the general rule. Normally I love them, think they add great fluidity to the character. Perhaps I was particularly sore because it was also one of the few times I brought up a grievance with the DM and essentially was ignored. I understand the last thing DMs want to do is argue about this stuff- but that's another thing that can lead to hard feelings.

Quote from: PanamaLane;361411Without making this all about this one particular instance. I was handed some evil points for not confronting/attacking a necromancer. The issue was, necromancy was legal at the time and place where it was happening. And while Lathlander's law trumps that of mortals, I didn't feel at the time the most good could be done by needlessly jumping into the trap, breaking the law and likely sabotaging my future plans by being arrested or executed, which I believe was fully the intent of said necromancer.

My paladin did not fall- but rather went on to be probably my more successful characters on EFU:A. More then anything I was annoyed that the DM who gave me the points, didn't seem to understand that I had given such circumstances serious thought and acted in the way I felt most appropriate to the character. He simply told me I was wrong (maybe I was wrong?).

All water under the bridge, but this is why alignment shifts can sometimes be taken personally. Nobody wants to be told they are not playing their character correctly.

Edit:

In the many years of playing with you all, I've had tons of alignment shifts. This was the -one- exception to the general rule. Normally I love them, think they add great fluidity to the character. Perhaps I was particularly sore because it was also one of the few times I brought up a grievance with the DM and essentially was ignored. I understand the last thing DMs want to do is argue about this stuff- but that's another thing that can lead to hard feelings.

it was a trap! I think that in such situation, no mater your action you would have earned some points...

you'd become more evil for being pragmatic or more chaotic for not bending to the law.

heh... poor boy

Quote from: The Marauder;361274If any  players are confused as to WHY they got an alignment shift, they should  perhaps think long and hard about the four cornerstones of the alignment  system and why what they did might have pulled them towards one over  another. Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos. The universe in D&D is pretty black and white on this.

If you really believe that there's anything even vaguely like consensus among the D&D-playing populace about what any given facet of alignment means, I have a bridge to sell you.

More forum flame-wars have been fought over how to interpret alignment than any other single issue in all of Dungeons & Dragons, over all editions, probably more than most other arguments combined. It is, quite frankly, a totally busted system that only barely works for individual tables by establishing a group consensus, and it breaks down horribly in a persistent world setting.

I think it has been said before: play a character, not an alignment, and roll with whatever punches you receive in terms of shifts.

Issuing stern recriminations to DMs issuing the points will poison your efforts and reduce the chances of your PC receiving attention. OOC maturity is required in all facets of conduct in EFU.

This thread has served its purpose, methinks.

This topic has served the purpose of explaining why DMs often do not bother with alignment changes pretty well. Just a mess.

Alignment changes are usually among the most unimportant numbers in EFU, regarding mechanics and story both. Unless it's an actual shift, which generally only matters in the case of falling from a character class, or losing the ability to wield an item, or something along those lines. This would give you a unique path to pursue... atonement, despair, whatever. This might already obligate a DM to observe you, without the need for a caustic response. It will be what you make of it, but again, they're just mostly pretty worthless numbers to us.

Of course, those who claim to enjoy alignment changes, or have a character who is pursuing a story in which they feel their alignment really has an impact somehow, are welcome to note such in a Personal Character Notes (//%22http://www.efupw.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=166%22) thread, and I'm sure that interested DMs will consider it. =)