How do you feel about the current gold availability? I find it undesirable myself.
Whereas in EfU:M you'd end up with 2 tabs of potions in a week due to available consumables, now you end up with gold instead. Lots of gold. I've personally experienced and seen low level PCs tote around Impro Invis wands or walk about with massive stores of (bought) potions as they turned the gold they got from the many quests that pay a lot of gold at low levels, particularly in Upper.
I'd suggest that there be a cap on the Broken Presentation, Dodging Trams, Underdark Exploration and Leech Gathering quest to bring them more in line with the Dunwarren Scavenging quest which has a cap of 3 times.
What do you think? Noticeably more gold? Is it a problem? Is curbing it desirable?
I think it should be noted that the level of gold is far less for PCs that can't enter Upper. The quests in Lower, for instance, pay a much smaller amount of gold.
I believe the higher gold level is intentional in order to create more of an economy than we had in EfU:M where gold was almost useless because supply levels were high. That said, it might not be quite at the perfect level yet since I've heard of PCs who, within five days or so, have gathered enough gold to purchase high-end wands from crafters.
My worry in this is that there's plenty of gold for those with tons of time to play and spend it questing. But for those with less time, or those who spend most of their time plotting and spurring conflict, they're far less prepared. Whether this is actually the current situation or not, I'm uncertain. Certainly the time issue is something that can't be helped, but when big, dangerous events are run those PCs seem to shine more than those of players who are scraping by. As a result they're wanted around more because success in an endeavor can hinge on how fat their pack is.
Lower is supposed to be poorer, by a gigantic margin, As it has no infrastructure nor a market at this point, the most of the gold is concentrated in upper. If you want money I suggest you peruse ic ways of acquiring it. I've had a good deal of lower pcs and pcs who have not had access to money gathering areas and made alot of coin. And the pc with the most coin I've seen in the entire server is not from upper.
I think we are seeing low level pcs with high teir equipment is most likely the fact that said pcs died down to that level or have been at that level for a considerable amount of time. An II wand costs 8-9 thousand coin something like that, which is very easy to get if you are merchant minded and sell everything that can be sold, to both players and npcs and do paying quests.
The level isn't perfect now, but once there are more gold sinks, gold levels will drop. People complained about "supply bloat" and other such, well we are getting gold instead of potions which means its much easier to amass massive amounts of supplies via the gold.
Anyway, final thoughts are, If all the potions are removed they need to give out more gold, if there is no gold they need to give out more potions. If you remove both, it gets boring because everyone is poor and has nothing. This isn't efu:A where we are a struggling settlement with no infrastructure, Sanctuary even if it has been destroyed has been around for a long time, trading and securing resources and is defined as a city not a village and in the current setting a gold defined market makes much more sense then a supply defined market. Sure you can rush high profile stuff, but if your a level five pc and your flashing around your II wand, someone is going to cave your head in and steal it from you same with potions.
And on the point of there is alot of gold for people who spend alot of time playing?
There will always be people who can play more and get more exp and gold, it is the simple fact of efu that time invested = rewards obtained. If your on for an hour a week and stir the pot then vanish for the rest of the week and someone who is on an every day and quests and stirs the pot they will get more then the person who is only on for an hour.
All and all, I think gold/quests are fine for right now, personally.
There is a lot of residual gold from early days and on many older chars, that have gained rewards from events and happenings.
Much has changed, and as gold gain is intentionally quite high on start, it isn't in any breakable level afterwards. Farmers will always get more, that can never be avoided really. Skimmers will always win, and nothing we can do to that either.
Any game and any system has those that farm and gain more. There's no cure for it, other than limiting times to do quest, which we don't like, or lowering rewards to really small, which is also not what we really want.
If something however seems absurdly high after low levels, we have bug report forum / suggestion, and we're more than happy to keep record of things and adjust as we notice something isn't working.
I would, however, ask patience. A lot of the changes we did two months ago, still don't properly show, and if we made clear changes now, it'll take time to show again.
A lot of the economy in efu flows with old characters leaving fairly much behind - often. One way or another, they spread up, stacking little by little, even if a lot of people die and their belongings are not shared out. Moderation is a virtue in this kind of game, and it's on every players end to follow it as they feel best. When it comes to system, we'll do our best to balance things, but their effects show slowly, and are time-consuming to properly balance.
There are ways for Lowersmen to get gold. I was actually thinking of it the other day. My hin Thessaly was walking around in the worm pits with like half a thousand gold on her. Lowersmen with initiative could just bonk her on the head, lift her purse and run off, very nice profit for not too much risk...
Yeah, when I posed the question of 'how would the typical Lower PC amass wealth in irc, assuming he has no access to Upper', robbing tended to be the typical answer. And if you're not playing a character who'd be down for some banditry, and who's not a brewer/crafter, I guess you deal with your poverty.
Like it's been said, there's not very much you can do about people who farm the big money quests. It's the way of the game. I've heard it said that Lower being poorer in general pay-out wise fits with the setting, and I can't say that I like it, but I can't exactly argue with it. Change isn't going to happen overnight, after all.
You either have lots of gold or lots of potions or loot.
Because the reality is that EFU is still balanced around potion guzzling. The lowerdark is based around potion guzzling, the harder randoms are based around potion guzzling, DM events are based around potion guzzling. Or being a caster, either or.
Casters are already incredibly powerful because they don't need as much in the way of supplies to be effective. If you reduce gold, then you only make them stronger at the expense of non-caster classes who require the supplies to keep up.
To that degree though there's other ways to earn gold as a PC without banditry or questing
Information gathering is a common influx for very little work, but then again not every PC is a snitch. Bards have put on performances and cleared 500 gold in some circumstances though it is a rarity because sometimes people save gold. You can charge people to deliver messages through the Urchin sending system so they don't have to pay the 500 gold You can have people pay you to put up forum postings for them. A lower PC who isn't widely known in upper can act as a smuggler and go get potions and supplies for wealthier PCs.
I'm not saying there's any easy way to earn money as a lowersman, for old and new PCs alike, but with enough creativity and a group of heads working together PCs can find a solution to the problem.
When in doubt there's always drugs, crime, and more that freedom provides.
I wasn't actually complaining in my original post, only saying that there's no such bloat amongst dedicated Lower PCs. Sure some might get rich, especially if the right group comes along, but if a problem of Upper bloat were ever to be addressed it would need to be addressed while recognizing that the gold bloat isn't server-wide.
Honestly I think it's a step back choosing gold over consumables. Even with the points paha mentioned it is far more difficult to bridge the gap between those who spam quests and know how to use the merchant system, especially in upper, and those who are looking for more finesse in what they do ig or have less time. There is also the problem of equipment, whereas on quests in Efua and efum you could find what you needed now I have to do multiple quests an die multiple times in banded mail before I can save up enough money from the level 2 - 4 quests to afford half plate or full plate.
I am far more in favour of the item and consumable reward system, I understand we want to get away from that whole 10 tabs of potions era but it would help make up for this otherwise bland and imbalanced conflict happening at the moment and the stagnant quest trains where people do the same umber hulk, jubal and clown journey ignoring half the other quests in the module through lack of supplies.
You could alternatively add high risk high reward quests for all level ranges for those with limited time or limited accessibility. I'd also gladly offer up some quest ideas but being a player with little time I'm forced to make something along the lines of a fighter with expertise so I can make a team with the other three players online to do volts and then log.
Higher gold plus lower supplies equals more PC economy of production of wands, potions, alchemy, etc.
It is very much intentional.
At the end of the world, coin may be common, but intact precious goods rare.
Can we add mining and craft able armour wares to that system?
Not in any such scale as you hope, or we'd be pleased with, no.
There are several points in this thread I'd like to address.
Yes, whoever has more supplies will be more likely to overcome tougher quests/pvp/specialty events. This is exactly the point. Also, these sorts of scenarios are meant to drain the cache's of supply-blessed characters. And yes, such scenarios will make certain PC's more prominent than others thusly.
But don't forget that groups of skilled players can also make crushing a normally 'difficult' quest quite easy because that group might just have great team cohesion and complimentary character skill sets. This results in few if any supplies used and the rewards going mostly to a surplus of gold/supplies.
Certain classes can also solo certain quests much easier than others which leads to them gaining a larger % of the reward than support classes who have to share it. Some of the 'turn in' quests can be repeated multiple times during a single reset as well since they technically aren't quests in the typical sense.
Skimmers then make money by being merchants from the occasional rare item that they take.
Don't forget ragequitting and retirement. So many people abandon characters out of anger or just decide to ICly retire a character, that when they are looted, they are contributing to the low risk/high reward payouts that normally only come with luck or good groups. Retirement or permadeath contribute more than ragequitting because ragequitting usually involves an abrupt log off that prevents the pack from being looted. But both scenarios will give massive supplies.
Old characters become flush with supplies/gold because in a lot of cases these characters spent a good deal of their early server time dying due to lack of supplies. Eventually one, several or all of the above scenarios will happen to the character several times in a row.
Typically, gold and supplies work on an inverse: high gold will be spent to make up for low supplies, and high supplies require little gold be spent (usually due to character encumbrance or saved to buy a super rare item at some point down the line).
The scenarios above would occur regardless of how much gold or supplies were given out in quests. You will always have certain PC's that have more than others, through luck, skill or subversion.
Quote from: Big Orc Man;368269Higher gold plus lower supplies equals more PC economy of production of wands, potions, alchemy, etc.
It is very much intentional.
At the end of the world, coin may be common, but intact precious goods rare.
If we're going to talk about consumables and the acquisition of such, I think alchemy and herbalism are a growing problem. They're systems that are driven almost solely by the OOC MMO grinding mentality and are often subject to similar exploitation and abuse. Outside of sharing recipes and creating relationships through apprenticeship and such (which I rarely, if ever, see done for any extended period of time), the alchemy and herbalism systems don't really contribute to the interactions and storytelling of the server.
In fact, more than anything else, alchemy and herbalism seem to encourage OOC selfishness, griefing, and seclusion. People tear up plants for the sake of doing it without trying to promote an IC conflict from such acts. Even people in the same faction or within an alliance seem to scramble for what reagents they can whenever the plants are replenished. Worse yet, both systems seems to go through fads. One person discovers a piece of prime loot and suddenly the entire server's mystically discovered the recipe for such. And I haven't even begun to mention the recently created PC's that are crafting obscenely powerful items from the get-go.
I don't know if anyone shares my sentiments, but of late the alchemy and herbalism systems have mostly just left me feeling sour about how people can sometimes act OOCly on the server.
Quote from: Pandip;368285If we're going to talk about consumables and the acquisition of such, I think alchemy and herbalism are a growing problem. They're systems that are driven almost solely by the OOC MMO grinding mentality and are often subject to similar exploitation and abuse. Outside of sharing recipes and creating relationships through apprenticeship and such (which I rarely, if ever, see done for any extended period of time), the alchemy and herbalism systems don't really contribute to the interactions and storytelling of the server.
In fact, more than anything else, alchemy and herbalism seem to encourage OOC selfishness, griefing, and seclusion. People tear up plants for the sake of doing it without trying to promote an IC conflict from such acts. Even people in the same faction or within an alliance seem to scramble for what reagents they can whenever the plants are replenished. Worse yet, both systems seems to go through fads. One person discovers a piece of prime loot and suddenly the entire server's mystically discovered the recipe for such. And I haven't even begun to mention the recently created PC's that are crafting obscenely powerful items from the get-go.
I don't know if anyone shares my sentiments, but of late the alchemy and herbalism systems have mostly just left me feeling sour about how people can sometimes act OOCly on the server.
Alchemist over population can be handled icly. [Hefts an axe.] But honestly, they say they are revamping the system so give them time.
Well not all alchemists are like that, its an immensely dangerous system and if they weaken its stuff I really think it isn't worth doing considering you can even risk perm in some situations. I hope when you say revamping it only means resetting the recipes or something. I for one am a new alchemist and it irritates me that just because you have a few ooc alchemists (which can be easily handled by telling the players oocly and if they don't listen hitting a delete button in the vault by a DM) that the system is getting warped. And really.. its not going to change anything in the end, all you do is slow them down and make them re-search for all those recipes then bam! here we are again at the same problem, where they spend tons of time researching and bring back recipes all over again. It's obvious when someone is oocly utilizing recipes, and I think the better solution would be to punish those players, rather than messing with an entire system messing with the ooc players and the good players. When in the end.. They are just going to find it all again someday and return to old habits.
The system needs revamped do to power and loot changes, supply of certain ingredients, and the setting change in general. The system is quite large, and the time our DMs have is quite limited. It will take some time to go over this project, propose changes with other DMs and then mess with the math behind the system. Its just, or shouldnt be, an attempt to curtail certain players, but rather make the results of any player more feasible.
Alchemy, like every other facet of this game, is designed to be spammed over and over again with a risk reward that makes it fun for some people. Quests will be quested, Alchemy will be looted, and the path of least resistance will be take to get a player to his or her own goals. Knowledge from one character to the next will happen, purposefully, habitually, or simply by accident.
On the topic of alchemy, I personally wont give reagents or sunderable items to alchemists that havent been around for a significant time.
The part that DOES bother me is these alchemists regularly skimming loot for stuff that is useful to the rest of the party BEFORE the quest or adventure is over. Then to add insult to injury, they dont even say they are going to sunder something....you just have to see the little sparkle of that action instead.
I always want to thrash loot skimmers.. Even as an alchemist I don't do that, and it irritates me immensely.
In my opinion, every system has its strong and weak sides... and in all systems a natural balance creates.
More often dying characters have access to low lvl quests and are wealthy and well supplied. Higher lvl characters usually need every rare coin to buy supplies and all the time they live in feeling of lack.
If you make the low lvl quests limited, you are punishing long living charachters. Higher lvl characters can reach these quest at the beginning. After half a year, they die several times on DM event and use all their supplies... and now they are without a chance to get back... they cannot make quest for XP and cannot get gold from it. (The natural balance will perhaps cause, that they could only kill other wealthy low lvl PCs to get their supplies and gold :twisted:)
Every change will have long term and quite unpredictable consequences (like in real economy) and the first sight solution need not be effective at all. I do not believe that any restrictions will lead to better system. Who wants to find a way how to loot the system as much as possible, he will always do it... and those who want to make other things (roleplay), they will always be a step behind (in wealth). On the other hand, they have usually better social status, DM support and so on...