...Should be NPC only. Or at the very least, fixed so that a certain instant death ray bolt no longer applies. Dispel gaze, slow gaze, damage gaze- all are fine, but I firmly believe that a summon shouldn't have a repeatable save or die ability.
They also should not fire all of their abilities instantly and simultaneously, I'm assuming this is intentional for some reason as I was told its not a bug.
Also, DM loot only?
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I was fully dispelled and killed in a second or so in PVP.
That's kind of ridiculous to have as a summon from an item you can find in a scripted quest. I recommend you just get rid of it from the loot table, honestly.
Does it also dispel the caster? Isn't a beholder's dispel supposed to represent its anti-magic field or whatever?
I don't find it -that- surprisingly, considering that anyone using it -should- be KOS for most of the server. Maybe cool down it a bit, but it is still a tool that -should- grant the hate of most of the people (not because of mechanics, but because of: ABERRANTS) and consequently should have some of payback for it.
Quote from: Sankis;377581Does it also dispel the caster?
From what I saw it did not.
The dispel is a cone in front of it, and I stayed behind it.
Edit: I think the summon is fine as it is really, it is super rare and extremely illegal and no stronger than scripted beholders. The summon has existed for as long as I have been playing if not longer and has not been changed since except its charges have been reduced.
Of course you think the summon is fine.
Any summon that forces you to make 6 consecutive saves instantaneously that even high saves builds would struggle to achieve or die is not fine obviously. Especially considering even if you succeeded in not getting blasted away you are stripped of all buffs and then hit for massive unblockable magic damage from the rays.
This is one of those things that works well against enemy creatures, but is incredibly powerful in PVP. For a lot of players beating a DC15 check is tricky, let alone in two different saves. The fact that you have to take five at once is just crazy.
This summon has been around for ages.
This summon has been around for ages. No complaints until now?
Yeah, get rid of this.
Quote from: LordOfBones;377585Edit: I think the summon is fine as it is really, it is super rare and extremely illegal and no stronger than scripted beholders. The summon has existed for as long as I have been playing if not longer and has not been changed since except its charges have been reduced.
'no stronger than scripted
beholders' is
fine?
Quote from: keron;377589This summon has been around for ages. No complaints until now?
An oversight as it was never common to begin with.
i think it is a bit much, but getting rid of a cool summoning theme sounds just saddening.. Perhaps weaken the summons? I've never used the theme though i've seen it used and even fought against it a couple times and never had any real problems, yeah its tough, but like said its very hard to get. There are some themes that are powerful and -meant- to be that way. As to this one, having it as random loot does seem a bit sketchy... Perhaps replace whatever is giving it in the loot tables with one time regents for it, and saving the actual theme for DM-giving, just like the other very powerful themes.
Revising the theme rather than erasing it seems like a sound idea.
Demon summoners are able to conjure succubi without their drain-level-on-hit, for example, even if I'd consider them a relatively neutered creature.
I'd like to see the Enslaved Beholder reduced in power, as a specific summon, or bumped up to a higher circle of summoning.
Weakening them is fine.
depends on how much they be weakened though, perhaps just remove the death ray, that should make them fine i think, that and reduce the amount of rays they let out all at once?
They shoot 4 rays per round which I don't feel is too much, I don't understand the desire to make beholders a joke.
Beholders are scary monsters and should be respected as such.
Quote from: LordOfBones;377607They shoot 4 rays per round which I don't feel is too much, I don't understand the desire to make beholders a joke.
Beholders are scary monsters and should be respected as such.
The fact we have a summon that causes instant death, is however- a joke.
Beholder summon theme is cool and fine. Aberrant summon theme is cool and fine. Slaad summon theme is cool and fine. These are all strong, but extremely rare and difficult to get, and can get you killed just for the principle of using them (so can demons/devils and ghosts though).
If it is a theme simply found on a quest and not a special reward then that might be something to take another look at.
Quote from: LordOfBones;377607They shoot 4 rays per round which I don't feel is too much, I don't understand the desire to make beholders a joke.
Beholders are scary monsters and should be respected as such.
You misunderstand a little, I think, the concerns of those in this thread. We don't have anything against Beholders being scary monsters, and they should be as powerful as they are, even.
We are just against PCs being able to summon these tremendously powerful walking death-things that should be more in the sole domain of the DMs to spawn and send as evil villains and bosses of DM kwests. That's like "Balors are scary" and "PCs can summon Balors to fight other PCs with". Ironically, it makes Beholders less 'scary monsters' and less 'respected as such' by the mere fact that PCs can summon them at all.
I like it :) The theme is plenty fine, I think suggestions to nerf the theme and the summons within it are a little over zealous honestly.
I understand the frustration with it being from an item, however, but I do question the validity of it being a common item in the first place.
Quote from: LordOfBones;377607They shoot 4 rays per round which I don't feel is too much, I don't understand the desire to make beholders a joke.
Beholders are scary monsters and should be respected as such.
4 rays of unmitigated magic damage, save or die, and dispel. You don't think that's a bit much in a PVP scenario?
It's not like we witnessed a single beholder summon wipe a group and completely change the tide of a PVP encounter on it's own recently or anything.
Quote from: LordOfBones;377607They shoot 4 rays per round which I don't feel is too much, I don't understand the desire to make beholders a joke.
Beholders are scary monsters and should be respected as such.
Edit: Actually, as I wasn't there, I cant really comment. I will say, however, from a lore standpoint I don't really like the idea of weak beholders. But I know nothing about the balance in this situation, so I'll leave debate to those who saw it.
There are numerous things in EFU that can quickly kill a PC. There are a few things that can even kill a group of PCs. It seems this summon is one of them. The item in question is rare enough as this is the first time we've seen such a thread. Personally, someone summons a Beholder to fight me, its time to run folks. When word gets out that Conan the Conjurer is out calling Beholders to do his bidding its high time a group (Society of the Ordered Mind anyone?) goes a hunting with someone able to cast "Dismissal" and a rogue to sneak up to the guy and just sneak attack him before the Beholder is even summoned. I don't see the big deal.
Dismissal doesn't help when it instantly fires off all of it's abilities as soon as it's summoned and instagibs someone, Heavyfog.
I know that this is a suggestion thread, and not really the place for debate but...it seems to me that a beholder summons should be reserved for concepts that are thoroughly devoted to the endeavor of summoning aberrations. It really doesn't seem to be appropriate as a piece of loot that is found in the module without a significant amount of devotion to the theme.
Quote from: Heavyfog;377619There are numerous things in EFU that can quickly kill a PC. There are a few things that can even kill a group of PCs. It seems this summon is one of them. The item in question is rare enough as this is the first time we've seen such a thread. Personally, someone summons a Beholder to fight me, its time to run folks. When word gets out that Conan the Conjurer is out calling Beholders to do his bidding its high time a group (Society of the Ordered Mind anyone?) goes a hunting with someone able to cast "Dismissal" and a rogue to sneak up to the guy and just sneak attack him before the Beholder is even summoned. I don't see the big deal.
You wrongfully assume that there are people somehow immune or empowered against Beholders. Beholders require very specific builds and equipment to combat effectively. If you don't have that you're dead. There's few exceptions. There are perhaps half a dozen people on the server that I know of with builds and loot capable of combating them effectively.
As for your plan, the sneak attack on the player would need to be an instant kill. Otherwise, the beholder would simply turn and incinerate the target as soon. Dismissal is fine if you get the drop on someone just chilling with a beholder already summoned but will do no good if the target is summoned mid combat and immediately forces a 4x 15 DC save or die. Furthermore, dismissal is a circle 4 (level 7) spell for clerics, or Circle 5 (Level 9) for sorcerors and wizards.
Edit: As for the item, I ran that quest a few times and it dropped each time. Maybe I was just lucky, though.
I have nothing better to do than call people names.
Remember when the Dunwarren Defensive Device got nerfed because it had charges of level 10 Confusion on it? Yeah.
It should be a strong theme. But -
On the NWN wiki, under beholder ray, it stats :
QuoteA beholder is able to shoot a variety of rays at opponents. Each of these rays may be used at the same time, and they do not necessarily all target the same creature. (Each individual ray targets only one creature, but different rays can target different creatures.) Each ray uses a ranged touch attack to see if it hits. All saving throws have a DC of 15.
As I understand it, the Rays of the scripted beholder can
all hit the same target in one single round? If this is the case, then... well - that's insanely powerful.
For the sake of the argument, consider the following
Adventurer A has +9 Fortitude/Will, and must save against four consecutive rays at a DC 15. The probability of succeeding one save is .75.
The probability of failing at least one roll is 0.68 This is equivalent to a single ray with a DC of 24.
If PCs are getting by six rays at once, that's obviously not right.
If a loot item that summons one of these more powerful summons drops so commonly, that's obviously not right.
The theme was really intended to be for beholder-focused concepts, with only the lower level summons being available through loot.
No further discussion required...
So as a little follow up, I've researched this issue and this is what I've discovered -
Shortly before the end of EFU:M, the Beholder theme was improved slightly. The Enslaved Beholder was not given death rays, however it was given bioware beholder AI which I thought would just make it be more clever in fight - making it retreat and such.
However, it seems that by giving it this variable it also sneakily received unlimited beholder rays (!?).
This was a definite bug and obviously not in any way balanced, and I'm very sorry that it apparently had such a big impact in a significant PvP event. That said I don't blame a player for summoning the monster and not realizing that it was so broken.
Those scripted beholders you have to kill within the first 2 rounds of combat or they fuck your shit?