A little earlier, I had a discussion with another player where the topic of wordless PvP came up. This is basically any situation where one player attacks another on sight without previous dialogue. It need not be either unjustified or poor playing -- the problem arises when it comes into play as the first option when it does not need to be.
An example: in a previous age of EfU, I once played a fairly prominent character who had another faction as very dangerous enemies. I had achieved this through roleplay and the other side certainly had reason to view me as bad news. Then one day as I came walking on a patrol while escorting a new arrival around, I ran into two characters of the enemy faction. During this time, I routinely had known members of the enemy faction set to Hostile, so I showed red to them. But it was not quite a time of open war, so I stopped to roleplay before turning aggressive -- and found myself flattened by enemy spells while I was still typing dialogue into the prompt. I was subsequently captured and taken to the enemy HQ, but I managed to escape in part through an incredibly convenient crit failure on behalf of the PC guarding me.
The very next day, I leave my own headquarters only to see the same two characters from the day before on the very edge of my faction's area. My immediate reaction was, "These are the guys that attack without roleplay. If I want to beat them, I have to strike first and strike hard." Which I did, eventually resulting in one of them dead and the other incredibly vocal and bitter at me -- ironically enough, because I had attacked them without roleplay.
I later learned that the reason they had attacked me without a word had actually been a fight or flight reaction. They saw a dangerous enemy showing red and their first impulse was to fight. Which is perfectly understandable and I hold no ill will towards them for that, but it did result in the unfortunate escalation that followed.
Which brings me to my point. Last night I was in a group that was hunting the Sons of Cyric. We had a rough idea of their location and were convinced that they had just killed or downed several people, so we were going in hot and ready for battle. We first met one of them separately and he tried to say hello, but our group came right at him so he understandably fled to the rest of his group. They were right on the other side and combat ensued immediately.
The aftermath of that combat is actually not important here. What is important is that I had occasion to speak with one of the Cyricist players and he told me, "It felt like a gank squad had come at us." We discussed that and he mentioned the fact that according to the 'villain double standard', villain groups are not entitled to attack without RP or to dry loot and kill without provocation whereas 'good' PCs may attack them immediately and often FD them at once.
I do not wish to discuss the standard itself; the DMs feel it has to be there and I can actually see many good reasons for it. Rather, my point is, just because you can attack someone without RP does not mean it is a good thing to do so. There are obvious tactical advantages to doing so, of course -- but EfU should hopefully be about more than combat tactics. If you take the time to stop and roleplay, sure, you might lose a combat advantage -- but why not see it as a way of betting a combat advantage against the possibility of getting some really good and memorable RP?
I find the irony of this especially acid given that the usual complaint about villain groups is that "they just run around and FD and loot without roleplay" and as a result the 'good' players in turn develop an attitude of attacking without roleplay. I know how tempting it is to take that attitude and how numbing it gets. But this server is supposed to be about roleplay and trusting other players to play fair. I feel that we could perhaps do worse than extend that trust even to potential combat situations and at least give roleplay a chance. And then, even if it fails, it might perhaps be wiser to rationally discuss what made roleplay break down and try to work out ways of keeping it from doing so the next time -- rather than do as I did and assume, "These guys are a lost cause. They attack without RP so I may just start to wargame against them and come in KOS WoW style."
Yes, sometimes you can justifiably attack without pre-combat roleplay and occasionally you actually have to do so -- you might be an assassin, for example. But maybe we should ask ourselves before doing so, "Might it not be cooler to talk a bit first?" I do remember a few times where that has happened -- and these times have nearly always been pretty darn cool RP.
~tOH.
I had a chat on this very topic lately, it went that if you think you will be lamed that is not an excuse to preemptively lame your foe. Use proper rp manner folks and handle things as you would ICly. And keep in mind that rp comes before anything else in EFU because it is a RP server not an Arena, but that is not a shield to hide behind. This server is rp server with pvp and FD in it, so when your at war be prepared for casualties and to roll with the decisions you make.
As a Son of Cyric, I can say we fully expect to be attacked without so much as a hello but we do try our best to make sure we talk before we fight. I think there is a common misconception among part of the player base in that if someone is hostile to you, it means you should already be fighting and I have witnessed this from people I would consider veterans as well as newer players.
I strongly recommend putting the emoting on hold until after the fighting is won. I have
thorough experience being subdued, blacked out, or kidnapped out of the blue, but enjoying the roleplay that followed. I consider it the captor's duty to perform courteously and poetically after they have secured their capture.
Don't risk banter unless you have the chance for it, such as when you are deadlocked by mutually impenetrable defenses or you're forced to abide neutral ground.
Quote from: The Old Hack;377710The aftermath of that combat is actually not important here. What is important is that I had occasion to speak with one of the Cyricist players and he told me, "It felt like a gank squad had come at us." We discussed that and he mentioned the fact that according to the 'villain double standard', villain groups are not entitled to attack without RP or to dry loot and kill without provocation whereas 'good' PCs may attack them immediately and often FD them at once.
If their characters have
killed people, then yes, they will probably meet a painful end. The Cyricists are mass murderers. If it was just a lonely necromancer, they'd be threatened then thrown harshly out as many times as their opposition can rationalize.
There are consequences for murder.The real rule about death is that it must be plot appropriate. Perhaps they felt justified in their choice of victims, but
of course they'll be attacked with intent to kill by the friends of those victims and the champions of righteousness.
As another Son of Cyric I can say it almost always starts with someone downing potions. We had a particular encounter where we walked up, and to this day no one can decide who started it, but someone started drinking potions and all hell broke loose. After that several dms took us aside and we had a very productive talk about rp before pvp. The idea is pvp should be a part of the rp, not rp'ing after pvp only. Its very hard to do so however, when walking up to a group of adventurers and saying Hello, and they instantly start downing potions like there is no tomorrow.
That being said there is the villain double standard, and anyone who plays one understands you have to hold yourself to a bit higher degree, otherwise it just seems like your randomly running around invis ganking and looting people. After -several- discussions amongst my crew with and without DM's present we have developed a strategy to ensure we always attempt to rp before we attack, and will not attack if certain steps are taken by who ever we are speaking to. Also we have ensured that if we do subdue people we -always- offer them an out that is character appropriate. We understand that if caught, we will be killed, but cannot kill or full loot everyone we subdue. That being said, you get out of the game what you put in, so if you are attacking people wordlessly, villain or hero, your just making yours and everyones experience that much more mundane.
It is unfortunate, but the Sons of Cyric have really worked themselves into the category of KoS as a whole. They regularly roll as a group who are going to basically ruin the day of anybody they meet IC, whether it is by actual violence or being forced to degrade yourself to try and avoid their ire. They've now killed a great many people, many of them very well liked, and have shown themselves to be willing to work with Beholders and use Necromancy.
From the perspective of any of our characters, are these people you would try to reason with? They are clearly deranged, and no amount of talking is really going to change them. You might bargain if they catch you alone, and try to escape, but any group of righteous adventurers is probably going to try and strike and remove them from the caves.
If you think about this from a cinematic perspective, for better or worse both the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys' usually have a nice chit chat before any plot changing fighting really happens. RP is very important to PvP. I myself have been on both sides of this wordless PvP argument both as the aggressor and the defender and in all cases the PvP with some RP build up to and some RP after are by far the best PvP encounters I've been involved in. In my opinion, we as players should strive to RP the best we can and if both parties give this OOC courtesy I believe people have a much more fulfilling experience regardless of the outcome. It is easy to give into the adrenaline when you know PvP is coming (I do this far too often) but I am learning the joys of RP over outright Winning. With RP we all win. :)
Praise Cyric! ;)
To be clear, we have 'permakilled' four people to date and never two people in one day.
So rather than mass murderers, it is more like serial killers.
A small percentage of the massive amount of people we have beaten up.
Quote from: The Samophlange;377722From the perspective of any of our characters, are these people you would try to reason with? They are clearly deranged, and no amount of talking is really going to change them. You might bargain if they catch you alone, and try to escape, but any group of righteous adventurers is probably going to try and strike and remove them from the caves.
I am not actually talking specifically about the Sons of Cyric here but am rather trying to discuss the entire situation around wordless PvP. There are many factions that are hostile to each other and it would be nice to see more interaction between them before fighting erupts. As an example, a couple days ago I saw a drow in interaction with a number of Sanctuarians and we had some quite enjoyable (if tense) roleplay with her.
A related example: a few days before the above, I and a few others found a drow threatening a downed Jeb. We storned to the attack immediately and of course he fled at once. Might we not have had more fun if we had roleplayed "Get away from that hin, you #&%§½£!" first without charging? It's not as if we had anything to lose -- we outnumbered him like seven to one.
I was speaking specifically about them, in response to things they have said in the thread. I have had many positive examples of PVP on efu, tense moments where a lot of heated words were exchanged on either side, and occasionally during a fight. I once got jumped out of invisibility and beaten down, and it was still an overall fun experience because the players involved were very courteous OOC. There are a lot of ways to make PVP more engaging for both sides.
Obviously, start by talking before swinging. This can be hard, as certain characters really do have it out from each other from the word go. In these situations setting the people hostile to let them know of your intent before you charge is a nice idea. When PVP is over, unless in dire circumstances try to avoid blacking people out. If you want them to go someplace force them to walk, so you can interact with them along the way. Try not to kill or seriously maim people the first time you battle. Take items or gold, sure, but make it so that they can come back and fight again. That is what makes for a more fun storyline for everyone.
It can be hard, especially if you are playing a villain and your failure can be so much more costly. But, this is part of the price of playing such characters. They tend to be doomed to an eventual demise at the hands of good men.
When in doubt, send a tell! Try and communicate to the other players, and let them know what is going on from your end of things. If you reach out and try to help make a good story, they will appreciate it much more.
One should always try to RP as much as is possible. PvP is no different. RP before, during, and after it. Even if this is just emotes. If you're going to literally gank someone, get an emote ready, and unstealth/uninvis a second before hitting them. When you're visible, shoot it off. It's cooler that way, though it can be a -little- difficult to pull off and is a little risky, though most people won't be able to react in time anyway.
Really, though.. People don't expect as much from you prior to PvP, as they do after it. How you RP after PvP is what defines you, to be honest. As for how your character chooses to engage his enemies, let that be up to your concept. A paladin, for instance, should never attack without warning unless they -have- to react immediately in order to save someone's life. Even then, striking from stealth or invisibility is dishonorable. Meanwhile, a barbarian usually doesn't care for the subtlety of an ambush (exception: jungle hunter, craven, salt raider), though note the key word is "usually." Rogues, of course, should always endeavor to be as sneaky and underhanded in how they engage their enemy.
Do whatever makes sense for your character, in a way that is most fun for your opponent and for yourself. Don't necessarily bend over backwards but try and keep the thought of "hm.. what is the most fun for my opponent?" in mind. Bring some theatrics, some grandeur into someone's execution. Say a speech, let them have last words/requests, or even let them get up from subdued and die fighting.
Or just let them die with the last things they hear being..
"The Lannisters send their regards."
I’d like to add a point to Valo’s. If you are going to FD a PC, if at all possible, give them the space to react in a way that allows the player to paint their last moments in the way they feel most appropriate. Whether it’s to beg, or cry, or scream, or threaten, and even if it diminishes your moment a little, let them have it. This isn’t to say break character, stay within the bounds of reason. But as badass as this moment might feel to you, standing over your defeated foe, it’s more important for the other player since it’s the very last moments they’ll be playing that PC. Let them take those moments to shine, if they choose to take them. It will go a long way to giving that player a satisfactory ending, and shows respect to their concept.
I have been in the loser side of PvP several times. And several times I was silently attacked without no previous wording/emoting or was forced to see people drinking/ buffing while I was seriously busy RPing to then have to fight at disadvantage and be forced into RPing after being brushed against the floor.
Yeah, sometimes I have silently attacked and lost the same way, still, what matters here is the sensation of unfairness and the bitterness that succeeds. How enjoyable would it be for a player in such situation the afterwards? How much could you extract from the PvP that the player would feel worth to go on playing such character? More often than not I would just OOC enrage and throw that feeling down into my PC until their actions would sum a death to the loss in PvP.
I am not always a great loser. Although, I had some shitty and meaningless endings for some of my PCs that justify that, honestly. KD/ Spell spams, encounters that added little to the story we were developing, looting while RPing with myself broken down and so on.
I got a lot to grow and to be better in this matter, I do not doubt that and I recognize that. Still, I have had some nice encounters where the general feelings and outcomes were far more enjoyable and productive, even with myself on the loser side.
Meaningful experiences and stories. That is why we are here for.
One day, I hope to only stand there and watch as my allies or minions come out of bloody nowhere to do battle with my enemies. I will monologue on the gravity of their sins, hands clasped.
I will gladly suffer evil overlord syndrome, regardless of alignment, if they win because I didn't participate in the dramatic ambush.
I shouldn't make this post, but I am going to, because I feel like this topic is addressing a major issue with the player base that has grown exponentially since EFU:R began.
Quote from: LordOfBones;377728To be clear, we have 'permakilled' four people to date and never two people in one day.
So rather than mass murderers, it is more like serial killers.
A small percentage of the massive amount of people we have beaten up.
I find it ironic that you are saying this as if we are overreacting because there's "only" been four people killed in the course of a week or two. I've been playing EFU on-and-off since early 2011 and I'm not even sure if the
total amount of people I've FD'd (not perma'd, but killed with FD mode) even gets up to four. And each death has been the result of group conflict, never a personal duel or instance of PvP.
You've also failed to mention the fact that you are rummaging through people's packs at every opportunity, picking through their things for gold and supplies. You have run about the server with an OOCly formed group concept that revolves around slaying and murdering people as you find them because, as far as I can tell, "haha ccckrrkrazzyyzy cyric!" That may not necessarily be the case. You may have a wealth of ideas behind your concept; some of them might even be cool. But the fact of the matter is, all I(/we?) see is a spree of mass murdering that does nothing to add to the storytelling elements of the server outside of adding a frustrating "villain" -- emphasis on frustrating. Call it "serial killing" or whatever else you please, but you are
ending another person's dedication, time, and hard work in the form of their PC on a frighteningly frequent basis, and I don't think any of you comprehend the weight of such an action.
I was a part of the aforementioned questionable encounter. We were a group of three injured PC's that had just finished fighting off a bunch of spiders. We had to heal up, remove the poison, and two of us had to relog to fix our bugged AC. I rebuffed my gear-bound buffs (mage armor, flame weapon; they are removed upon relogging) and the next thing I knew, five fully buffed PC's were on top of us with a selection of undead behind them. There was a misunderstanding; fine, I can cope with that. But then you proceeded to try to
kill the PC's, and when you were OOCly discouraged from doing that, you stole a wealth of their things instead. You could have had the courtesy to move on and call it a misunderstanding,
but you didn't. Besides which, buffing when you see a mob of undead and their necromancer Cyricist leaders charging at you doesn't seem like a very unreasonable thing to do, especially considering your propensity for murdering other PC's.
I have seen you try to, amongst other things -- and I quote -- "unceremoniously cut off" somebody's head. Frankly, a mob of people coming and killing you at some point is perhaps a bit more than you guys deserve. I can't fathom an instance where someone would react to your group with anything more elaborate than fight or flight. It has gotten to the point where I have had it suggested that I simply avoid your group by any means necessary, not only IC, but OOC as well.
Yes, this is harsh and something resembling a personal attack, but if you are going to hide behind poor, poor pity me excuses and make the claim that you are somehow being mistreated by an unfair double standard, then I am going to make it abundantly clear that you are mistaken -- because you flat out are and
dammit, it needs to be said and well known.
All of that said -- I want to emphasize the fact that roleplaying on a server this vast and large is a purely cooperative experience. Unfortunately, I've been seeing a very genuine lack of cooperation lately. I understand that the driving idea behind EFU:R is a sense of fatality, impending doom, danger, etc. But what the server is meant to represent in theory and on paper sometimes doesn't translate very well in practice. Of late, I've gotten the increasing feeling that the lesson learned after every PvP is "kill or be killed," and that
so shouldn't be the case.
Conflicts should be sweeping and prolonged, an exciting and gripping series of tense engagements that continues over the course of weeks, maybe even months. But that doesn't happen. People are terrified of FD's and the consequences of their actions -- and they should be, because that's one of the great aspects of this server. But not to this extent. Not when it leads to people preemptively slaying other PC's because they don't trust the other person to show courtesy or mercy in the future. Not when people's first action after PvP is /c yank pack, because shit bro I have to take this guy's things so he can't fight back next time and I can beat him if he strikes back!
Let me emphasize for clarity: EFU is a
cooperative experience. We should be looking to tell stories with one another, not "win" over another person by killing them and stealing their pack.
Guys, our standards have been pretty lacking lately. Not always, not with everybody, but the point stands -- we can do better.
I am going to simply respond to the above post-
Calm down.
EFU's driving force is conflict, many times- it's over treasure, loot- ideology, and more. It's about history, faith, war- sides, and circumstances that neither side can control. It's about survival and the impending doom that we all commonly share as mortals in a setting where we can often feel helpless in the tide of overwhelming death.
The Cyric group has ~done nothing wrong~ and people should stop treating them like PvP trolls out to gut people. If you FIGHT BACK- they will take stuff, it's fair- they are bandits. Whether they take to MUCH is something you need to address with the DM crew. If they KILL YOU- you probably deserved it. I have -never- seen, or heard, of an unwarranted killing. Calling Cyric WEAK and SHITTY to their faces is probably warranting FD as its tantamount to hanging a sign on your PC going "yea I wanna die." Guess what, they'll oblige.
I see a group of players who are currently ROCKING THE BOAT, and providing themselves as targets for HEROES to strike down, for players to organize themselves around and pursue in a meaningful manner- that makes the Shield outside Sanctuary actually DANGEROUS and a worrisome venture. Something the meek and mild do not pursue. How is this a bad thing? How is making the world we live in dangerous and edgy a poor decision on their part?
As always, there is room for improvement, you can help them by suggesting they take on certain practices or pursue different means toward their goal to strike fear into Sanctuary, but as it stands, I see a lot of people who are unnerved by their rocking the boat and seek in a knee jerk reaction to hate on them and bitch about them instead of trying to ~help~ them strike the careful balance of IC villain and OOC player courtesy. Perhaps instead of harsh criticism, you might offer a critique?
It's a double standard, yes- but as villains, they can defendd themselves by killing others. Come at them with the intent to kill, and you implicitly agree that you may be killed yourself.
Deal with it.
Edit: Thank you spiffy that was well said.
QuoteThe Cyric group has ~done nothing wrong~
I'd like to echo this, as one of those killed by that group. Perhaps the first killed by them.
Morick Renarus, my druid who hung out in the Lowerdark, caught them in the Crossroad caves and attacked. A few blunders in that PvP quickly saw me brought down. Later, after a drawn-out PvP session, I was given a choice between being robbed and potentially mutilated, joining them, or having a 50-50 shot at death. I chose the third option, and was told if I succeeded, they wouldn't even steal anything.
I entered PvP with them expecting that I may very well have to kill one or more of them if I won and their reasons for having undead out at the time not sufficient for my merciless druid.. instead I lost and died, but died in a very interesting way as their RP is legit. Not to mention, the death was fully earned.
So quit it with the hate for that group, and there's nothing wrong with having an OOC'ly organized group arrive through the portal. (Prelude groups, anyone?)
I don't think anymore posts are likely to be constructive, I strongly suggest aggrieved players speak with each other personally or contact a DM with concerns.
Locked.