This really should be boosted, wether for SF: or GSF: Conjuration or not. I am not saying they should last hours, but 3 rounds/level is too short. Even 5 or 6 rounds a level would be better.
Yes, summons are incredibly useful and they can be spammed to hell. But that doesn't change the fact that they do not last very long. Sure, for the lower level quests this is absolutely fine, they do not need to last long because most themes can absolutely rock the low level quests.
But once you start getting up to the LONG quests, Like orcs, Sinister Enclave, And most DM quests meant for higher levels - You see just how very un-useful summons can be.
You only get so many spells per day, Summons can't buff by themselves and don't last long enough to make it worth give them potions. Their AI sucks and gets in the way, often making them bunch up uselessly if you have more than one. Some summons are ridiculously powerful, but those summons are higher levels, that players will be able to summon 3-4 times/day if that.
The average level 7 will get between 15-24 summons or so per day.
That is 31.5 minutes at minimum of summon time in total (For 15 summons) ASSUMING the summons do not die, and they are summoned one at a time. That number looks really great, except when you consider most of those summons are level 1-2, making htem incredibly weak. They die very fast, and on the higher end quests are pretty much just fodder to distract monsters from PCs (For what.. 5 seconds, if that?)
Given the fact that they cannot buff, are incredibly weak(in general, I know some themes are amazing), and their AI sucks - I think lasting longer is a very small thing to ask. 5-6 rounds per level at minimum, but I would ask for at least 7-8 rounds/level.
They don't need to last forever, just longer than they do now.
I'd like to see their duration extended by quite a bit. Perhaps a minute / level like some spells, while reducing the amount that can be summoned to maintain the balance wished for.
I used to wish something like that,but the new summonin system with multi-summons makes up nicely for the lack of duration, imo. And you can always extend the spell duration.
Even with extend spell, conjurers are severely lacking compared to other casters.
I wish the only thing that affected summons was spell school. =(
Quote from: Letsplayforfun;114359I used to wish something like that,but the new summonin system with multi-summons makes up nicely for the lack of duration, imo. And you can always extend the spell duration.
Quote from: "Someone who wishes people would read their posts"Yes, summons are incredibly useful and they can be spammed to hell. But that doesn't change the fact that they do not last very long.
QuoteEven with extend spell, conjurers are severely lacking compared to other casters.
Extend spell makes it even worse. It's a traeoff between summoning a weak summon that lasts a decent while, and a good one that doesn't.
All we need is a 3-4 round boost/level. Please.
I am definitely in favour of this! I mean, at least allow this for the SF and GSF: Conjuration mages/clerics, you know? >_>
Oh, come now. As if Conjuration mages are all about the summons!
Need I remind you of Mestil's Acid Sheath? Melf's Acid Arrow? Web? Evard's Black Tentacles? Conjuration has some of the greatest number of spells affected by the GSF and SF feats associated with it of all the spell schools.
In my humble opinion, the summoning durations are fine just the way they are. Summons are not intended to dominate entire quests: they provide a short distraction in combat during crucial moments.
I am in favor of this, I have played a ton of summoners and compared to other 'normal' casters they have all sucked. I think that if you have SF and GSF (Conj) as well as extend spell, all your summons should last 10 rounds/level (1 min/lvl). Now people would have to invest a lot of feats into this, but the advantage would be pretty awesome.
Just stop. Right now. There's a great old animation of a man beating a dead horse that someone posted a while ago, but I can't find it, so boo.
But seriously. Give up.
PnP summoning by default has always been pretty weak. I recall reading a post on some 3.5 board where a DM lamented all the extra levels and feats he needed to make a respectable summoner bad guy for the PCs to oppose. On that basis, I would support a small extension of all summon spells.
Also keep in mind that in PnP you have the option when casting a Summon spell to intentionally draw weaker creatures in order to randomly summon more of them. This gives you a bit more crowd control with a single spell, even if the creatures are laughably weak in whatever situation you place them into. Instead of all this extended duration nonsense on creatures with no AC and so-so HP, I would go as far as to say make summoning reagents randomly summon more creatures based off of their rarity and cost. While I realize some of the reagents can power summons up pretty obnoxiously, I am much more interested in the crowd control aspect of summoning. Such a suggestion not only powers up a relatively weak school of spells but creates more demand for IG items, leading to a stronger economy.
Mechanically speaking, summoning remains a poor choice for wizards and sorcerers who survive on their spells alone. In my experience, summon spells are much better utilized by characters who have some utility without expending their slots, like clerics and druids.
A well built summoner mage will rock. As Johannes said some of the nastiest offensive spells are conjuration (evard anyone?) and you get multiple summons, add in the spellcraft bonus and you cab be very powerful indeed.
I still got bored of my conjuration sorc, but more due to the innate base summon theme weakness (now fixed for sorcs, if not wizards) and lack of duration. I'd like anything that makes more active mage builds get used more as opposed to "buff and then don't cast".
Having the summons stick around would make it feel more like "I HAVE A HORDE!" than "occasionally I make a CAT turn up!"
EDIT: SPELLCRAFT bonus? Didn't know that.
Johannes is right. Conjuration is hot stuff.
In spite of Conjuration's other powerful spells, short summon durations still hamper characters who are designed as minion masters. If longer durations would afford the conjuration school two feasible sub-types (minion master and offensive caster) who are relatively equal in ability and up to par with other builds, then I say lengthen the durations.
I'm all for players who seek a challenge in mechanically disadvantageous builds, but when we have numerous build possibilities on par with each other in quest-ability, then all you get is more variety! That's a good thing, says I. There are always ways to self-cripple those builds if you want...
Personally, I'm tired of seen a majority of mages acting as consumable factories or walking buff stations. If we could give little perks to those who opt for other methods of play, I'd have no complaints.
I'd be for some increase in durations, definitely.
I think you guys are taking this off topic.
I wasn't saying "OMG CONJURATION SUCKS" I was saying that summon durations need to be beefed. It's as simple as that, and no other conjuration spells should have anything whatsoever to do with this discussion.
Conjuration duration is too short, it needs to be longer.
That was the suggestion, please stop going off topic
I was just thinking how much more of a chance this suggestion stood being implemented if you didn't suggest it in such a douchey manner.
It might also be worth noting that summons are not invulnerable to damage. They are much weaker than PCs of the same level. Even though they may last longer according to durations, they're much more likely to be killed during that duration.
Keep the duration as is.
We have certain feat called Extend Spell, which increases the duration by 100%.
A level 6 summon lasts the same time as a level 12 summon.
If you wish longer summons, use this feat.
With the New Summoning themes such as SHADOW (yes, there is one, the 50% concealment summons and they have str drain) they can potentially rock the enemies frontline allowing for PC's to storm behind them. I don't believe that these summons should stand idle, the concept of use or loose comes to mind, and the short duration forces casters who use their summons wisely.
I believe an increase for the summoning duration would be good, more variety is always good.
In other news, perhaps we need to revisit the Shadow theme if it is as powerful as you say! Maybe we need to revoke it.
Fortunately we've been keeping lists of every summoning theme everyone has taken.
Anyhow. The reason we have been mentioning the other conjuration spells is to combat the argument that Conjurers require summons to be formiddable on quests and for similar purposes - no less so than, say, an evoker. Or an abjurer. Or any other spell class you care to name. Why should conjurers be special? The fact is that a Conjurer's repertoire of spells is already more extensive and potent than many other schools' spells, and a strategy consisting solely of summons is a sad abortion of the rich diversity of the spell school.
For purposes other than smashing through quests single-handedly? Why do immediate needs care about whether your summons linger in the long term? If you take longer to kill something than it takes for your summoning spell to expire, as a wizard you are probably already dead.
I'm sorry, but I fail to see any strong argument in favor of this suggestion.
Having played a summoner a long time ago, before multiple summons but with the same duration, I find it lasts long enough. I've never had a problem with it. Even with my sucky default summoning theme. And I love summoners.
I would like to see this suggestion implemented not just for quest effectiveness but to encourage other practices with summoned creatures.
For instance, it'd be really cool to see a necromancer summon a couple of spirits to guard or watch a door while he's having a private conversation inside.
One can say that the character could use a familiar for this example, but familiars don't have the flavour and the cool factor that EfU's customized summons have.
Stop beating this poor horse! *calls the police, as well as the undertakers... for horses...*
Necromancers have Animate Dead, which lasts indefinitely for all practical purposes. I don't see the problem here.
If you really must have a summon which sticks around for a long time, lesser planar binding also fits the bill.
Animate dead is one of the most useless summoning spells. A fifth circle spell for wizards/sorcerers which more often than not is a waste of a spell slot.
Lesser planar binding is also fifth circle spell.
And if you want to be a badass who summons creatures to guard doors for him, then you'll need to make an effort to level up your wizard/sorcerer. <_<
Animate Dead lasts until the undead is destroyed, but for a summon of that level, the creatures conjured are useless because of the lack of useful corpses.
But anyways, I thought this thread was about the duration of summons, and not about their badassedness.
Hmm. In the same vein as a focus, could you have something you could use to summon a single long duration creature for those purposes?
Call it a Glyph of Binding, and give it Unique power 1/day. Sets the next summon to a 24hr duration. Make it available to PCs on startup and don't allow buying of them.
This is not a wild thing to Ask, Johannes. You're argueing against this as if we were asking for a "mulligan-like" death system, were we could type /c mulligan and be alive again, if we were killed by a lag/bug! (lol)
I'm more in line with Secutor;
QuoteIn spite of Conjuration's other powerful spells, short summon durations still hamper characters who are designed as minion masters. If longer durations would afford the conjuration school two feasible sub-types (minion master and offensive caster) who are relatively equal in ability and up to par with other builds, then I say lengthen the durations.
I'm all for players who seek a challenge in mechanically disadvantageous builds, but when we have numerous build possibilities on par with each other in quest-ability, then all you get is more variety! That's a good thing, says I. There are always ways to self-cripple those builds if you want...
Personally, I'm tired of seen a majority of mages acting as consumable factories or walking buff stations. If we could give little perks to those who opt for other methods of play, I'd have no complaints.
The point Johannes, is taking conjuration just for the sweet offensive spells is fine. But saying "You have access to these sweet spells, Why are you crying about summoning" Makes about as much sense as wearing a boot on your face. Some people may want to be an offensive conjurer and not give a shit about summoning. Some people may want to be a summoner and (Sorcerers especially) may not be -able- to take the offensive spells in addition to their summons.
Other people have made good points, and one of the things I really agree with. If I want my PC to be always followed around by water elementals and guarding me - Sure, I can do that right now. But I need to keep casting the spell every 2 minutes or so, which is kind of lame because before I can either A) finish a conversation or B) Get to where I'm going, or C) Finish watching whatever I'm watching -- I've run out of spells and need to go rest yet again.
5, even 8 (Maybe even 10!) rounds/level is not too much to ask, and It's such a minor change I don't see why there is any arguement against it at all. It's not like this is a brand new script, that needs to be written from scratch and then thoroughly tested. All that needs to be done is change ONE thing in the entire script, hit save, close the script window, hit save again, and then upload it. Any DM with 10 seconds of free time could do this quickly and easily whenever they are planning to add something else to the module anyways.
I think Egon's suggestion of ways to FURTHER increase summoning duration has merit, but I think that is for a different thread altogether. For now, Let's focus on a more practical duration before we start shooting for ridiculously long.
Yes, it is too much to ask. I've seen summons make or break a battle quite often.
Some notable examples:
- The slime cube.
- The Deva.
- Any summon with a fear aura.
- Any summon with DR.
- Even that old Rothe (used to be level 4 of normal summon) against small creatures spammed knockdown and rocked most goblins and kobolds when the going got tough.
- Most level 4-5-6 summons (which can easily be achievable through reagents found with herbalism/alchemy)
- Those broken water elementals.
- The Undead theme, more specifically 4th level and up which are extremely strong, can hold a spot for tons of time and cause level drain. (The spectre summoned by the Seer in the old quest is a good example of how powerful these things can be. It often wrecked entire parties and nobody could harm it, the seer isn't that high level but it felt like the duration was extremely long).
This was without buffing these summons with spells, so if you buff them, you can get some extremely strong minions more powerful than PCs at times. If we take your suggestion that this monster should last around for 9 minutes at level 9, yeah no thx. 1 turn and 8 rounds is plenty of time to make an impact at level 7.
Summoners have, like, receive TWO major revamp by johannes since the start of efu:a which made them an already interesting (if broken at first) class to play.
I'm not a fan of 'minion masters' a la diablo II, if controlling tons of monsters and crushing everything is your bag, best wait for diablo III.
MAYBE, where we could compromise is being able to find items which strengthen the bond of your summon to the prime material world making it last longer or other individual perks for well played summoners.
As it stands, I would prefer not touch summons anymore for a bit.
Man I can't wait to blow off steam with Diablo III.