This is just a thought, but I was curious if the player-base as a whole had some thoughts or interesting ideas for how they'd like to see "law enforcement" function in our setting.
We've sort of gone through a couple of phases, and at present House Sharboneth (as the "owners" of the Colony) are combined noble house/retainers and responsible for law enforcement (investigating crimes, keeping order, and so on).
We've some great PC members in the House right now, and they're more than welcome to chime in on this thread, as it's definitely true we're still in the phase of figuring out how everything works (for example, whether we're completely convinced we want wizards acting as House Sharboneth "guards").
If anyone has some intelligent, thoughtful, interesting ideas or feelings they'd like to share, here is your chance!
Obviously the idea with law enforcement is to have something that is:
Fun for all involved (players who are doing it as well as criminals as well as the unvinvolved)
Interesting, flavorful, suitable for the setting
Functions well and is not boring without an endless stream of spoon-fed dm plots (which tire us out!)
Just curious what kind of ideas are floating out there, really. Posting this on a whim!
Make an active bounty hunting squad. this is more of an IG thing, but seriously that bounty board just sits there with noone giving a damn about the pathetic rewards seeign as it would cost more in supplies to actually bring the criminals in.
Also, guards should be issued with shackles. These are a really neat rp tool and should be standard issue.
I thought it would be neat to see a bounty hunter DM faction come to light. These would be PCs that have applied for and earned the Houses trust. They would be tasked with hunting down and removing the more vicious of the criminals that crop up from time to time. They would also be tasked as sort of general fix it men. Goblin problems on the boarders? Go and fix bounty hunters. The key to the faction is that they are hired on a job completion basis. Cant bring in that criminal? Out you go. They are a very large step down from the Guard force and sort of looked on as an undesirable requirement given the number of Guards and the threats of the island. Also, their legal power would be extremely limited but perhaps some of their NPC leaders could encourage intimidation tactics and the like to get the job done. The idea is have a faction full of shady PCs and NPCs that the more military guard forces have to put up with. Great conflicts between the Guard and the Bounty Hunters. Just a thought.
My own opinion is that the law enforcement of the server continue with the theme of the land. I was unsure about a lot of things when I considered posting. I started looking up ancient Sumerian Society, where Ziggurat originated, well one civilization. Here's what I found:
Law was an integral part of Sumerian society. Nearly every aspect of civil life was recorded in writing on a tablet. The tablets were used as evidence when a legal dispute arose. These written records were verified with cylinder seals. Early seals were carved from small gems and decorated with mythical beasts, battle scenes, et cetera. Over time the designs became standardized and formalized.
Legal disputes followed a set course of action. Before reaching court an attempt was made to settle the matter between the parties involved. This process was presided over by an arbitrator known as a maskhim. Failing that the dispute was brought to the court were a panel of professional judges, known as dikuds, heard the arguments.
Legal ramifications depended upon a person's class. Crimes against a member of the amelu carried a stiffer penalty than similar crimes against the lower classes. However, members of the amelu who committed a crime were usually punished more severely than members of the lower classes. This practice could stem from the military society associated with the upper classes and the necessity to maintain discipline.
The Sumerians are responsible for the first known set of written laws. These laws are known as the "code" of Ur-Nammu. By 2400 B.C. laws were common on Sumerian society. These laws were designed to protect the weak, poor, widows, and orphans against the rich.
The patron god or goddess of a city was seen as its ruler with the human king as his or her divine representative. The citizens held the power in early Sumerian cities. Decisions were made in an assembly. When a crisis arose, such as a war, the assembly elected a lugal to make the decisions. Over time this position became permanent and heriditary.
My two cents. Laters!
In major criminal cases, a council of the patricians of the colony could be conviened. This would allow factions (including the criminal) to sway the decision in their favor, and make patricians a bit more powerful!
When I first heard about House Sharboneth as a faction, I imagined that it was a combination of the Watch and Spellguard.
There's the obvious on-the-street law enforcement aspect of the Watch but also the we-run-this-damn-place attitude, mindset, and subtle social control of the Spellguard.
A non-martial combat class such as wizards have an obvious detriment to enforcing the law on the streets. But I think they could easily fill many other possible niches. Even an army, for example, is not completely populated by front-line soldiers: there are clerks, information gatherers, engineers, bureaucrats. A noble house would naturally have its spies, diplomats, regional-local representatives, and so on.
Quote from: Sandstorm;114589In major criminal cases, a council of the patricians of the colony could be conviened. This would allow factions (including the criminal) to sway the decision in their favor, and make patricians a bit more powerful!
This.
Yes.
Quote from: Sandstorm;114589In major criminal cases, a council of the patricians of the colony could be conviened. This would allow factions (including the criminal) to sway the decision in their favor, and make patricians a bit more powerful!
Assuming people can't just buy it anymore, then yes. For 4000 gold, or the same cost as full plate, someone gets to sit in and vote on major criminal cases? I would hope not. I do agree with the general idea of it, though.
As for the law of the colony, I agree that it fits the setting that whoever controls the colony, or "owns" it, is quite able to make any laws they wish. This allows for the factions and their general alignment to shine out through plots to overtake the colony or whatnot.
As for Wizards / Sorcerers being guards, well, whatever. They need a place in factions, that's for sure, and I think that it needs to be adjusted to fit the setting. They could easily be something entirely different within the faction(s). The Armada could use them as 'war wizards' or something, for example.
A more medieval bent to the law enforcement faction would be cool, sort of emphasizing the retainer/liege lord facet perhaps.
And for what its worth, I think its a really good idea to allow wizards and bards etc. into House Sharboneth as retainers. Personally, I think limiting to people who use swords and armor is sort of dull. And a wizard on the beat to back up his fellow guardsman can do wonders, especially if fights erupt with criminals.
Most of all though, I think there just needs to be more criminals! Make some bandits, loan-sharks, assassins and whatever else! Playing a Guard is just dull without big names to go after, I've found.
I'd like to not know how it really works. I want layers and layers of brutal mystery: secret tribunals, inquisitions, ecclesiastical trials and executions, rumors of work-camps, undercover agents and endless mazes of legal bureaucracy.
I want Kafka to be my DM!
Just a thought, but if we are going in the medieval direction, it would be interesting to see a more religious tone to the law-enforcement. There seems to be plenty of deities, both good and evil, in whose name one can “stomp out crime”(the Inquisition comes to mind). Churches do not seem to have much authority in this setting, and it could be fun to see them have more power. I don’t think a religious overtone would put any limits to what classes could join the law-enforcement team either, though priests would probably become more powerful.
I would love to see more of a religious influence upon the Guard.
I would love to see a more, basic influence on criminal investigation (trial by combat determining who is right etc...)
I would love to see magic have a place within the guard.
I would enjoy seeing players who aren't in the faction have a greater degree of influence.
I would enjoy allowing them have access to Alchemist Fire Barrels and free Shackles.
I would enjoy allowing them to PvP as they willed.
QuoteIf anyone has some intelligent, thoughtful, interesting ideas or feelings they'd like to share, here is your chance!
I am not directly for or against wizards backing the guard. If they were not let in yet needed, this could be used as the framework for a wizard faction/ sect. A separate faction could serve many purposes, even potential conflicts with the guard here and there ala the SG/ gaurd scraps. Just gaining the position and reputation to work with the guards would provide many hours of play that ought to require very little DM time.
In with the Sharboneth retainers is fine, but a separate faction may be worthy of a look too!
What needs to be avoided though is simply falling back into the archetypes of Sanctuary's factions.
Quote from: 9lives;114612What needs to be avoided though is simply falling back into the archetypes of Sanctuary's factions.
To elaborate upon this, a faction of 'Law Enforcement Wizards' would probably be a bad idea in the current climate, purely because they've such an awfully
hard act to follow. I felt that the Guard were the least popular DM faction purely by virtue of being a watered-down Watch, and the Sharboneth were a concious attempt to move away from that theme, although I do feel IG implimentation is somewhat lacking at the moment. The 'medieval' theme is what I personally wish to achieve right now, and any suggestions as to how we could do this better would be greatly appreaciated.
If we want to go in the medieval direction as far as law enforcement, and I agree, that would be cool, then wouldn't it be that everything has to come from the ruling house, in this case, the House Sharboneth. They would appoint people to preside over trials, set laws, etc. Basically someone like the second cousin to the head of the house would be a judge, etc. Implementing this by having people submit an app to play a house relative or valued retainer that was appointed to be a judge in the colonies. These would be seperate from the guard, or in charge of the guard to a certain extent.
Religious rule would be very cool as well, but it would have to come from the Sharboneth, they would appoint a church as the implementors of law or something along those lines.
I think the relatives of the house makes more sense given our setting since as far as I know, House Sharboneth isn't overly religious. (Of course if they wanted to, I know a great church they could reach out to....)
I would truly like to see a bit of lawlessness. After all, a noble house being the head of the government has many inherent drawbacks. Foremost as it relates to law being that the main concern of the house should be its own financial interests and the preservation of the hierarchy.
As far as house members go, chasing petty criminals would be of low import. Spying and counterspying on factions of size that could pose a threat to the influence of the house, rooting out seditionists, and military actions against large threats should be the main concerns. Protecting the rights of merchants here and there, that might not be a big concern, unless they were allied with the House and had paid their dues.
I would like to see a legal system in which merchants paid for constabulary protection, and the roads were rife with highwaymen and brigands, and if you walked too far away from the guard house, you could be held up at knifepoint for your purse. That is, of course, unless you are a PC with either deep pockets or vast social connections.
There needs to be room for the petty thug, not just the super underground criminal mastermind. That way, you always have a chance to play "cops and robbers" when you are either a guard or a criminal. So let's not so much "enforce the law" on a day to day basis, and more "hunt down the ones that matter."
The shape of the Legal System of House Sharboneth should be as follows. PC members should not be guards, but more like magistrates. Able to act as jury and judge, except when pursuing people of class, who are entitled to trial. NPC guards should be almost nonexistent, except at the gates and when the city is under attack, and within the lit buildings of the ziggurat, whose patrons can be assumed are paying for the luxury. I want to see some corruption, payoffs, internal investigations, inquisitions, spy versus spy, and cops and robbers. No more "so and so stole loot from us on such and such quest" and more "so and so was talking smack about Lord Sharboneth" or "so and so has claimed a mine for his own company, and not handed it over to Lord Sharboneth."
My two cents,
Meow-mix!
At first glance i would also add more public related penalties:
- being chained in public view for 10-15mn,
- public whiping,
- hanging protocole (where the victims' friends can react like in any good old fashioned movie),
- public pleading/ excuses ceremony,
- stoning of course, etc.
I also would see the law enforcement with a more colorful uniform. Maybe it's just me, but i spot stygians correctly, but not the others.
I would also very much like a more clearly oriented religious line to the Sharboneth rulership. Just having any faiths around without the local leader saying anything seems weird. It would also help shape clerical factions into the political agenda.
That's it for now.
QuoteA more medieval bent to the law enforcement faction would be cool, sort of emphasizing the retainer/liege lord facet perhaps.
I would like to echo this as well, it was the first thing that came to my mind after reading big H's post. Some thoughts I had on the overall feel:
Fluidity: Give the "peacekeeper" factions the fluidity to express the current situations of the ruling faction. If Sharboneth is a petty dictator and wants the place locked down with an iron fist, then that should be expressed in the majority of how interactions with his peacekeeping force. If he is here for monetary gain and really only wants peace enough not to interfere with his trading, then the overall feel should reflect that as well, perhaps comming down very hard on theives, piracy, etc (death) and perhaps not caring too much at all over brawls that end in the death of some low life in the gutter (offender gets fined), of course if that happens in an inn or bar that affects the patrons and makes them want not to come to the island for trade (impacting the bottom dollar), then the punishment might be very harsh indeed!
In it's current state I suppose I could see a very vassal/Lord theme to the laws, where he cares about his bottom dollar and image rather than dolling out punishments for every little thing.
NPC presence, but PC driven: Let the NPCs privide an overall guiding flavor, but allow the PCs to interact how they will and play their characters (to their benefit or detriment of course in any situation). I think this has always been done, and hope it continues.
We have a lot of merc presence on the island right now. I could easily imagine mercs deployed to hunt down criminals that the Lord wanted brought to him for judgement. Let the Retainers take the responsibility to hire adventurers to go out and do that.
Differences in the Guard, and Retainers: IMO House Retainers > Colony Guard. I've always gotten the feeling that the guard are like Army Reservists or national guard, paid to stand watch every so often against the dangers of the wild island and keep the walls manned and safe under the direction of the more capable Sharboneth retainers and mercs rather than taking on the aspect of the arm of the law. Let the Retainers of the Lord act in his name and carry out his laws, it would make the division of power more deliniated and present in the game, and cause some interfaction rivalry--we need some, lots of colony protective merc/retainer/guard types rolling around it seems.
That's all I got.
Having stuff like a war wizards in the guard would be interesting. I'd enjoy it personally because of :
- Buffs and spells
- Some intelligent souls in the guard
- The use of more magical items and devices understood by the hands of mages.
- Could go and bring up a new part of the House Sharboneth that is like the Magister's guild.
I would first and foremost like to see this implemented:
QuoteMagistrates
Four positions selected by the Court/Governor to act as judges of Capital Crimes and act as the judicial consul of the city. Led by one High Magistrate,Eumond Hamuranos, and three others, they receive lodging, storage and a small pay for their services at the newly reformed Courthouse. Ideally, a magistrate is named until death, however it is possible due to unforeseen problems of corruption or bad judgment that a magistrate be suspended from his services. Magistrate possess a modicum of authority over the guard to settle civil disputes.
- Act as Judge on Capital Crimes.
- Survey/Study current laws and make suggestions to the Court.
- Settle minor civil disputes
I think having PCs in place to handle the judicial side of the law enforcement will only further enhance the feel of a true player oriented environment. This will also allow the Sharboneth Retainers to carry out the true enforcement of the law vice the interpretation of the law.
In Medieval Society, at least that of England for example, those in charge of law and order believed that people would only learn how to behave properly if they feared what would happen to them if they broke the law. Even the ‘smallest’ offences had serious punishments. The authorities feared the poor simply because there were many more poor than rich and any revolt could be potentially damaging.
I would like to see the continued practice of public punishments carried out by the Sharboneth Retainers. Whether for minor infractions of the law or for capital crimes, I think it is important to see that the Lord's Laws are carried out by his men.
- Public lashings
- Perhaps make greater use of the stocks, as I have not seen it utilized yet
- Frequent patrols to display force and superiority
The ultimate factor in which I can simply echo is the lack of criminals in the first place. Without them it can make playing a law enforcement PC far to realistic for the sheer sake of boredom of walking in circles all day long.
It seems to me that House Senuspar as an expansionistic, mercentile group it was first portrayed as is interested in making certain coin flows into their pockets regularly and in large amounts. To this end, they should make sure as many people clamor for Patricianship as possible. By really imbuing these characters with additional rights and privledges that visibly give them authority beyond those of other PCs possess. Essentially, they would hope after lining their pockets with gold that the Patricians would do a good job with their relatively limited judicial and executive powers, but when they dropped the ball the 'enlightened' House Sharboneth would get to appear on the scene and remove their Patricianship publically, appearing noble and wise. Civil service and awarded forms of Patricianship should really be reserved for characters that have done a good deal to ensure House Sharboneth benefits to an extent approaching that value.
While 'medieval' forms of punishment might be sought to create a new theme with the faction, I honestly don't see why this should be. Brutal punishments made by a quietly fearful ruling class are more the tools of a traditional monarchy, while my admittedly limited understanding is that the nobility that has risen out of Old Port is relatively young and likely more of a medieval middle class mindset; one where they have earned greater wealth and station than a traditional aristocracy and bothered by the fact they could not advance socially thanks to social codes and rights accorded only at birth. If others come behind them now and achieve the same station, they would look to them with a grudging respect provided those individuals respect the powers that be.
I also believe factions should be as open as possible with whom they recruit to better facilitate the creativity of players. I think most realize its an unwritten rule that really good concepts and well-liked characters can typically end up where they want, but I found hard cutoffs written on the website for some of the original EfU factions (non-divine, non-arcane, etc.) detrimental to this goal. I feel the EfU:A factions are better worded and more open to a range of character classes, and this is a trend we should continue to support.
I have given this thread a bit of consideration and I think there are a couple of areas that could be elaborated IG to create a more interesting RP server. I think it is important for the player base to understand the significant and absolute rule the Count has over Old Port. The Count achieves and maintains this through totalitarian rule, spies; locking up anyone he deems so, executing any he is concerned about, etc. As such, anyone who knows anything about this is going to be looking to get the heck out of Old Port and stay out as long as possible. So, the Colony would seem much more attractive to many of Old Port who have been oppressed and discriminated against. This could be expanded upon a bit IG to give a bit of a LE feel for Old Port. Perhaps many criminals and persecuted religious types might flee to the Colony for the purpose of hiding, regrouping, counterattacking, etc. This would create some Plots for PC’s to join these groups, spy on them, and/or leak information to the guard, etc.
I see this relationship between Old Port and the Colony similar to the relationship England had with Ireland during the 1600’s. So, when Governor Orted died and his government failed…The Count of Old Port had to select just the right house to oversee and rule “His” colony. Failure to do so would result in absolute rebellion and civil discord against his interests. With all of the Count’s concerns inside Old Port, the last thing he would want is a safe haven for his adversaries to stage from. As such, it would seem logical that the Count selected a house that he could trust (Sharboneth), who had a history of not dealing in slaves (would be popular with many of the Commoners of the Colony) to rule over the Colony. I would think that House Sharboneth would not stop in the hostile take over. He would move into the Gobsquat, Docks, East, etc. and hunt down all monster type races and lay claim to any resources. At the present time, I feel as if they are currently in a idle pattern.
With an active Guard PC, I have to say I was a bit disappointed in the lack of significant mistrust or anarchy with House Sharboneth conducting a hostile takeover of the Colony. I would have thought the brief moment in time that we had no government in place, many would have praised the freedom from "Nobility" oppression. Additionally, I would have thought that the former Guard Captain Fyoris and Marshal Sullivan would have been popular with many of the commonors for keeping the Colony safe from the Shambling mounds, Orc, and Nightriser attacks in the absence of the government. However, I did not get that feeling when House Sharboneth quickly brought both Fyoris and Sullivan up on charges of Treason. I didn’t see any overt opposition or mistrust from the public (NPC or PC) pertaining to this action or of House Sharboneth. I think plots along these lines could still be played out IG.
As it pertains to the Guards, House Sharboneth, and the server…I think that the Colony should have a more rebellious underground feel rather the pending doom feel from the Orcs, Nightrisers, Hbala, etc. As it stands now, you have three very powerful civil defense organizations (Stygians, Guards, and the Order). The entirety of these three organizations could be a bit stifling for the more Chaotic and rebellious elements of society.
My two cents worth…
Domare
The Po Po haven't been a real powerful force in any of my characters' lives as they've both been fairly good. I've known several members of the Sharbs, but I've never seen any good police beatdowns, outstanding breakage of the law, or arrests. The Bounty Hunters idea seems a good one, but I've never even seen the bounty board, so I wouldn't know. Perhaps, if we could get some good terrorists, an anti-terrorist squad could be formed!
Ultimately I would like to see many ways to 'get out' of crimes. Be they money, slavery or pledges of fealty. Too often interesting criminals just die, get executed, when they really have more of a story to tell -- IMO. I have always had a problem with large punishments for tiny things. Assault, for instance, is pretty fun for all -- when you raise the stakes though so that simple violence is executable then there is little IC incentive not to leap to FD.
Quote from: DangerousDan;114615To elaborate upon this, a faction of 'Law Enforcement Wizards' would probably be a bad idea in the current climate, purely because they've such an awfully hard act to follow. I felt that the Guard were the least popular DM faction purely by virtue of being a watered-down Watch, and the Sharboneth were a concious attempt to move away from that theme, although I do feel IG implimentation is somewhat lacking at the moment. The 'medieval' theme is what I personally wish to achieve right now, and any suggestions as to how we could do this better would be greatly appreaciated.
Colony guards - Maintain civil order of the laws within the colony and it's immediate area.
Add in a separate wing of Sharboneth that focuses on the lands outside of the colony. Still holding normal guard 'powers', but rarely using them and often being a little more chaotic, looking the other way as if it "isn't their job". They could be a little more ruthless and have goals to claim resources and land for Sharboneth and often act as judges alongside the patricians (as suggested earlier, who may fill the role of some sort of minor nobles). They could very easily be a totally seperate faction with simple loose ties to Sharboneth or bound by some sort of contract to the ruling lord of the Colony. Give them some perks, immunity to arrest from normal guards and outranking them or something. This is where your wizards / sorcerers / rangers would better fit.
Patricians - Please adjust them, make them a little more appealing and also a little harder to obtain. Give them immunity to immediate arrest from the regular guards, immunity to petty crimes charges. Allow them to be part of a jury in the court system and also have input on changes to the law.
Holy Members - Appointed by the ruling house. While Sharboneth might seek to appoint followers or Tyr as judges and a Supreme judge, maybe the Stygians would use members of the Order or paladins of Hoar.
I don't know, that's just a combination of some things I picked up out of the other threads, or at least my view on some of it, and I think al ot of it adds in to help faction plots and opens IG oppertunity for characters.
We need NPC patrols that cross into wilderness areas eventually. In the Mideval times, especially with banditry common, a few soldiers on patrol along major roads was common . . . usually. I think that if the Sharbs cared about profit they'd do some patrols.
That would make sense if there was any trade on Ymph proper ATM, which there is not.
This is all over the place.
This is kidna unrelated, but I don't think Gobsquat is very well-placed for obvious criminals like Lower was! The only way out without going through the Ziggurat is awkward, I do not believe thugs and brutes can have as much fun as would be allowed with a less enclosed criminal haven.
First I would like to state that the many ideas contained in this thread will likely be organically implemented by the Guard/Retainers,
when there is a pressing need for them. Much like there is no sense in patrolling the wilds until there is trade, there is no reason for us to discuss punishments, greater role/involvement for the Guard in law enforcement, judicial system etc. because there simply aren't that many criminals/people trying to subvert order in the Colony.
One of my biggest pet peeves with NWN PWs in general is how players take the status quo to be the 'natural state of things' - yet, in EfU:A, we were all given the precious chance to have a glimpse at the setting before Sharboneth, the Armada, the Order, and all the more lawful factions came into the picture. What does this mean? That players should, must, really, have a memory of what things used to be like, so that they can consider what things could/should be like.
What I mean by this has been stated in other posts already. Sharboneth pretty much executed a hostile takeover of the Colony. The homegrown attempts at government were pretty much bypassed in favor of their system/model, and I can't help but wonder if this is due to Sharboneth being a DM-controlled entity, unlike those who previously attempted to build/maintain a government. This affords them a greater deal of legitimacy in the eyes of the casual player; It makes them a much greater foe to challenge, to those who would try to sow dissent and disorder. And, naturally, since they brought in a veritable tonne of assistance (and a semblance of order) to the Colony, given their large assets/resources, perhaps the great majority of characters is content with them in charge. It is a bit strange to me, however, that a great deal of those who stood for 'freedom' and 'an end to tyranny' simply stopped their outcries the moment Ortred's government segued into the current one, with no figurehead to stand between Sharboneth and the actual management of daily colonial affairs.
With this in mind, I have two thoughts. One is for players in general, the other is perhaps an embryo of an idea for the Sharboneth Guard/Retainers. These echo what has been said before, but are somewhat more fleshed out.
- Players in General: Try and stand up to Sharboneth a bit more. Do not take their near-complete control of the settlement to mean that they cannot be challenged. Question their authority, and do your best to foment at least a fledgling 'independent' entity. Stress the differences between those who were brought to Ymph by portal, and those who came from Old Port. Explore these venues, attempting to make the Ziggurat more than just the "Sharboneth Colony" (those of us who had the opportunity to see the setting before the Sharboneth came in will recall that they are not, in any fashion, necessary for the existence of the settlement as such!)
- Sharboneth Retainers/Guard/Law Enforcement: I would like to see this faction step away from law enforcement, maintenance of order and distinguish itself from the Watch in Sanctuary. Perhaps they will begin treating those who are brought by portal differently than the Old Porters who arrive on the island. Now that the faction is pretty much established, why not begin pursuing Sharboneth's goals more aggressively in the Colony? Taxing the colony more heavily, and generating conflict aren't necessarily a good idea in the long run for the House, but it is my understanding that this thread is a brainstorm for ideas that will help make this faction more flavorful and foster conflict. Start treating the Colony like it's your backyard, and I'm sure the House will become quite different from the previous law enforcement factions we've seen on the two incarnations of EfU.
You'll notice these two thoughts compliment each other. I guess I would just like to see Sharboneth treat the Colony like they own the place (which they do, at present). Yes, I do recall instances of characters/entities/factions being literally chased out of the settlement by the Sharboneth, but the poor response on the part of the more 'freedom-loving' characters would suggest that a heavier hand is necessary in making House Sharboneth stand out on its own.
These ideas point to a reversal of the current trend towards order, and if they began gathering up steam, I believe we would see the settlement return to a state similar to the 'tabula rasa' we encountered when the new setting began.
One thing I do know of though is that there will soon be more crime. When I looked at the forum talking on the factions with apps. I noticed it saying:
Unspecificed EFU:A Criminal Organization
I found that on the app forum so I do think that perhaps there may soon be more crime around if you know what I mean. I am not trying to be OOC and all, but I know that it will come up soon.
1. The Stygians and other sea-faring factions should have their own individual maritime penal systems. If you step aboard their ships, you're subject to their rules, period.
2. There should be a larger number of exiled lower houses who collectively pay Sharbonneth for the maintenance of some loosely modified enforcement of Old Port's laws. Perhaps this arrangement is based on some stipulation Senuspur would not agree to, causing them to seek refuge on Ymph. More houses yields more opportunities for intrigue. The Sharbs, more than anyone else, would have both a financial interest in giving haven to these people and the opportunity to do it, creating tension between them and Senuspur.
3. We need a very visible, very public outlaw DM faction. Seekers?
Having the Seekers around again would be interesting. With the Seekers back there would be a Chaotic faction again. Perhaps they could have a SECRET home for them around? Seeing that there are so many unexplored places and secret areas I have found around.
How do you know there isn't one already?
Let the Seekers die, people.
Kiaring is right as soon as an NPC that is blue steps into the picture no one questions them. Pcs will form a government but are considered violating freedom but as soon as Blue Npcs show up Pcs back out in cowardly. For example people have raided imposssible dungeons of Red Npcs. But as soon as raiding blue Npcs is suggested ppl say "OH TO strong!" Etc. Like for example.
When Alecz came into power Pcs and Law enforcers where bickering about him yet did nothing against Thomas Alquivin owner of a bar of undead team good mostly turned a blind eye and team evil simply plotted their which was ridiculous. Because Pcs where all.
Or Freedom loving pcs loved freedom so much including a slaving Band of Duerger Mercs known as Fort Mur was allowed to operate and Pcs backed out in awww because of the might of Blue NPcs Yet when a call for Drow raiders from Traensfyr at the gates comes Ppl Blindly rush to defend from the force.
In my OP Ppl fear blue Npcs because they equal Permadeath.
Yeah, I'm in full agreement with DrD here. Wow.
Non-hostile NPCs are powerful, often ridiculously so. For example, I have before now made IC tip-offs to Good factions about Zul'jin on a few PCs, but everyone's scared to face him because he's Badass. Fair do's. He's a Palemaster/Sorc with his ancestors on call. And yet if it was a DM posessed Knight of the Order who decided to open a Can Of SmiteTM on him, people would turn up.
However, a lot of NPCs seem way powerful compared to the PC population who are out there trashing hordes of monsters on a day to day basis. Back when we has the playerlist show, I noticed that Kingsman was a Level 10 fighter. Kingsman. The innkeeper. Who needed rescuing from monsters way back when. And who doesn't quest. Now, I can understand that "kingsman killed by griefer" is bad, but just make him unkillable outside of Dm posessions.
What I would love to see for law enforcement are "Redshirt" Blue NPCs. Non-hostile ones, who are up to no good and are made for the purposes of being arrestable/killable targets for PCs to go after. NPCs of level 6-8, with average-player grade supplies, not 30 potions of Elemental Shield. Red NPCs are mostly made to die, whereas Blue ones are mostly made to survive. We could use a blurring of boundaries.
We really do need more PC/NPC conflict, and not to have it restricted to when DMs decide to escalate a situation by bringing in NPCs and making a Shout. For the players to change the server, they need to be able to damage controversial NPC organisations to the same degree as player ones. We had a lot of rivalry when there was less DM intervention near the start of the server, but would it have been the same if the Amaunatori had been led by a couple of NPCs, or if Gaeseric, not Vandermark became Steward?.
Obviously for the purpose of stability we need NPCs, but IMO the solution is to have a backup NPC or faction plan in the wings and be prepared for a controversial NPC's death by PCs, not to make them nigh-unkillable. I understand it's more work for the DMs to have a "subs bench", but it would stop the oddness of:
"So, we just defeated TWO HUNDRED ORCS! What now?"
"Eliminate the two Evil Necromancers running the Mausoleum?"
"Er... Blue Aura of Badassery"
"Ah. Right. Let's go kill THREE HUNDRED GNOLLS! instead."
To bring it back to suggestions, I like what Thane posted about the four magistrates. This really brings PC's into the mix for setting the direction for the server. Of course, we have to be careful who gets appointed since you could really make players pretty miserable if you were a jerk about the position.
For everyone's convenience, i'll paste what he posted here:
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Magistrates
Four positions selected by the Court/Governor to act as judges of Capital Crimes and act as the judicial consul of the city. Led by one High Magistrate,Eumond Hamuranos, and three others, they receive lodging, storage and a small pay for their services at the newly reformed Courthouse. Ideally, a magistrate is named until death, however it is possible due to unforeseen problems of corruption or bad judgment that a magistrate be suspended from his services. Magistrate possess a modicum of authority over the guard to settle civil disputes.
- Act as Judge on Capital Crimes.
- Survey/Study current laws and make suggestions to the Court.
- Settle minor civil disputes
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(As far as people not standing up to NPC's, I agree, people don't want to get stomped and usually, when you go against them, you do...)
Randomly killing npcs has never gone over well -- should Cyrus have died to power quested dwarves? Should Thomas have been killed by the first paladin group that got 10 people togeather, buffed and charged? Did people not bemoan the death of all the cool npcs of efu?
Conflict, sedition, rebellion can all happen on a server with one ruler. Noble courts were rife with intrigue. Maybe you should take rebellion off the table, accept your sharboneth masters, and create conflict within that system. A buffed up bloodbath will not be the story you want.
PC underlords/barons that are exempt from island laws for them and there followers is excellent. PC judges are excellent.
Randomly killing npcs has never gone over well -- should Cyrus have died to power quested dwarves? Should Thomas have been killed by the first paladin group that got 10 people togeather, buffed and charged? Did people not bemoan the death of all the cool npcs of efu?
Conflict, sedition, rebellion can all happen on a server with one ruler. Noble courts were rife with intrigue. Maybe you should take rebellion off the table, accept your sharboneth masters, and create conflict within that system. A buffed up bloodbath will not be the story you want.
PC underlords/barons that are exempt from island laws for them and there followers is excellent. PC judges are excellent.
This is all over the place once more! Stay focused people.
[size=14]MORE CRIME. LIKE, WE NEED KRUNTO/WHATEVER (putrid_plum?) TO GET DRUNK AND STEAL HIS SHINIES.[/size]
Oh, and don't forget to tip the soup pan. We don't need soup on the upholstery.
Also, a nice theme would be medieval, but that just seems so bland and normal.
Maybe we should just get Sharboneth to give us a slum/ghetto where all the sickies and druggies and poor people go.
A few thought out yet sporadic comments and one wish at the end.
Who should be in the Sharboneth Faction.
I would like to see fighters, rogues, wizards and clerics allowed in House Sharboneth.
Fighters for the Guard. You need to be able to pick up a hammer to knock down the nails.
Rogues for the guard, spies, and Speakers of the House. I good PR staff member is needed to provide some smooth talk to garner public support as well as bluff those bastards into the dirt.
Wizards that either provide Guard backup with buffs, divinationists to provide council, and as spies.
House Sharboneth appears to favor Umberlee, therefore any clerics should be followers of Umberlee.
Sphere of influence
I do not think it is appropriate to see guards outside the city patrolling. On missions perhaps, but there should not be enough soldiers to handle internal and external issues. If any patrols outside the city should be considered it would either be the Stygians, a Patricians group, or another paid mercenary group.
Relationship to Stygians
If the Stygians are paid mercenaries to protect the city and look outward, why are so many patrolling around inside? I would like to see them patrol the outer walls, but once inside they may be present, but need not patrol. That is for the House Guard, "those not strong or smart enough to actually be a Stygian". If the Stygians are always seen patrolling it may give the wrong impression that they care about laws being broken inside the city where they do not get paid for any action taken against some dirtbag. Course that all depends on what they are actually being paid to do.
Law
If Sharboneth is all about making money, then the main focus would be to have payments for most crimes. That way, the rich could do crime and pay for it and enjoy an ale afterwards. Why not pay first then do the crime. The poor would envy the rich or work to become a patrician. A little class warfare would be good. Of course sedition and rebillion would require the highest form of punishment. The factoid has them thinking they would have had more money so it might be the focus to build wealth quickly.
Wish to see:
Walk the plank
I also would like to see the plank. Sharboneth, or perhaps the Stygians, can make a prisoner walk the plank. The individual would then have an underwater adventure to see if they can actually make it to the shore of some foresaken locale. Let Umberlee decide their fate.
Could make for some interesting RP in not knowing whether a person is actually dead or not. Or at least others can pretend to be said person when they are not.
The concept of a fuedal law enforcement system was mentioned earlier, it caused me to begin to think. Let us take the idea of a Noble House and run with it. You have a set of Armsmen right now, create a position under them in the House and call it Squires. Squires are either one of two catagories. Players that have had their application accepted OOC and have yet to earn it IG (but are clearly working on it and have taken the step of becoming a Squire IG) or players that are waiting application approval but have begun working on their goal IG. For an Armsman to achieve the next rank, the Armsman must succesfuly train at least one Squire to Armsman status. Squires are assigned Armsmen or recruited by the Armsman IG. The Squire is then personally trained by the Armsman until the Armsman believes the Squires training is complete, at that point the Squire is presented to a ranking member of the House who determines if the Squire is fit for service in the House. The idea is that the you institute a system where people remain under other people for the entire IG lives. You are recruited as a Squire by Armsman A, you become an Armsman yourself but still report/serve under the Armsman that recruited you. A big part of that Armsman being promoted is considering how well you are doing. In turn you are expected to go out and find a worthy Squire (or train one assigned to you). Thoughts on powers.
Squire:
- No offical power beyond being recognized as a possible recruit of the House.
- Expected to follow the order of their Armsman (if they ever hope to be excepted into the House).
Armsman:
- Same powers as currently have.
- Expected to have a Squire.
- Expected to train that Squire to Armsman level in the House, or dismiss the Squire and find a more competent candidate.
- If a Armsman has allready trained a Squire to Armsman level, expected to insure their now junior Armsman continues to uphold the Houses honor and aid said junior Armsman in training the junior Armsman Squire.
Higher Ranks:
- Whatever powers they have today.
- Expected to provide and continue aid their junior Armsman ect.
The idea is to have a feudal system instead of a militaristic one we have seen in the past. You are responsible first to your Armsman/Rank X person. Others of higher rank may command you if they hold higher rank than your Armsman, but it should be clear that the chain of command goes through your Armsman.
Thoughts?
EDIT: Some minor grammer issues.
I like it.
The whole concept of an Armsman/Retainer training up a Squire fits the medieval bill really well, and has some good mechanics to it. Sort of a sponsoring program. Made even better if the Armsman is held personally responsible for any Squires they train up! Would be awesome to see some Squire fuck up royally, only to have his Armsman kill him or intimidate him into full confession so as to avoid dirtying his own self.
Basically anything emphasizing the fealty/liege lord aspects as well as the true noble house concept is great.
What Not.Him.Again outlined sounds excellent. If we want to go for a feudal type system (which perfectly fits FR), ranking and status is everything. In many feudal system Law Enforcement was connected to property and status
In our "world" Sharboneth is like the King (maybe challenged to this by the Count?).
The lower ranks of the class system have been outlined, anyone lower than squire is just a commoner:
Squire
Armsman
Retainer (patrician?)
Above these would be a whole set of ranks:
Knight (allowed to call themselves "Sir")
Lord
Baron
Viscount
King
No need to use these names but you get the idea. Religion (leaders of many faiths sit in the House of Lords in the UK), law enforcement, the judiciary etc. are all linked and play a role in law enforcement), with the King/Queen at the top.
Creating our own class system would be great and as Caddies outlined it would bring loads of intrigue etc.
For example: If you are a threat or enemy to those in power under feudal systems it doesn't always end in direct conflict, its very political as well. A powerful well supported PC (like De Olid maybe) could extract concessions from the "King", land, wealth etc.
Sycophantic PC's may take an age to climb the "greasy pole" of the class system (think of Meldred in UK Blackadder) only to be usurped by some great hero (like Wellington in UK history) who after leading armies to great victories jumped to a very high position very quickly. or like Francis Drake who went and killed lots of Spanish and brought back tons of their gold, being made very powerful himself (of course some who did this sort of thing often ended up getting themselves killed see Sir Walter Ralyelgh).
Anyway thats my 10p.
I support that, we need the house to really be class system, perhaps even make Oaths of Fealty required for patricianship or somesuch, or even to live in the Zig, it would bring a lot of tension up.
Exactly, I also thought it would be a nice way to introduce new players to the game. The usual OOC/IC meet and great and then sugest the player either create or have their current character apply to be a squire. That way you have a well established role player who is able to take a new player through the game world and show them the ropes. It all makes sense IG to if the new player makes a few mistakes, hey they are a squire they are suppose to be learning. Of course not only new players would be Squires but you get the idea.
I would not assume Squire would need to be applied for- Simply a time to earn recomendations and an interesting way to introduce the PC to the faction while their application is processed. Similar to CDL except less modern.