This quest is remarkably difficult with no reward. Please increase the reward. We used all of our supplies in a 5 man group (2 people had died/logged already), and got URCHIN RAGS as our reward.
I don't recall this being that difficult, but I ran it for the first run and Howl may have changed it. Easy? Not in the slightest. But it's wasn't too bad.
Perhaps a Stargazer can hire the PCs for this quest, handing out something neat and tribalish at the end for the triumphant heroes?
An incredibly fun quest for our group, though extraordinarily difficult. Our reward wasn't all that bad though, maybe you just had some bad luck?
I'm surprised to hear this is difficult, but I'm going to adjust the treasure.
The difficulty seems to lay mostly in the constant use of poison by the Tiered archers during the outer portion of the quest, which you cannot always avoid by hanging near the walls of the cliffside. Unless you have a wizard who prepares a lot of Ironguts, and a cleric who prepares all lesser restorations, its quite difficult during the current state of the server. Near the end of the quest we had multiple people with 5 constitution and sub 20 hit points as front line fighters. It was further complicated by the current collision detect in NWN causing people to bump into others when trying to avoid the poison gas traps!
I'd suggest that potions of antidote, potions of lesser restoration or anti-toxins being an infrequent to rare drop on the Kobold Marksmans during the quest until the server economy changes to accomodate people having a small number of these items.
It was a fun, albeit challenging quest though, given the current nature of the server, and I wouldn't see anything major changed. :)
Maybe something could be added as a consequence/reward to destroying the eggs in the final chamber though.
The difficulty lay in the 10 or so kobold archers per ledge which attacked our group with poison from varying heights. Sticking to the ledges didn't always work, and if it did work, most of them would run around and attack us anyway. I think that Krunto, Naga, Scalebane or MrGrendel can give a more accurate account of what happened! I suppose that we should've gone in with more than a few potions of cure serious wounds and 1 or 2 lesser resoration potions, but it seemed like it was a lot of damage, quickly, and more scaled for old EfU than the lower resource level of EfU:A.
Sounds like you got really strange spawns. We had like, 11 people when I ran through this. I'm not sure of Howl put in extra spawns like normal or not. Regardless, we saw only 5-6 kobold marksmen/regulars per ledge.
I found the difficulty to be perfect, more or less. A bit more healing could be provided on the whole in the way of lightly charged items maybe-but it makes for a wonderful endurance challenge for low level PC's.
If you don't have blur, your going to die horribly on this quest, it's scaled for old school efu. The crossbowmen deal 1d8 damage + poison, they are fairly accurate. They also have exceedingly high hp and are completely unreachable for a time.
Most of the difficulty is with the Kobold Marksman. I won't be touching this quest with a ten foot barge pole until it's worthwhile to do so. There is a difference between a challenge and high probability of death! This one leans too far towards the latter for my liking!
Though with that said, I can see how it's doable, but some blur items as a reward would certainly be far more appropriate!
I have to say out of all the quests I've done so far this one is most definitely the most difficult. I've done this quest three times. The first time I did it was the night the server went live, and we couldn't go into the warren (transition didn't work). However, we had already used all our healing supplies anyway. We would have had to turn back regardless.
The second time I did it Howland oversaw the quest. We completed it that time, but it was -very- difficult and resulted in a lot of deaths and respawns.
The third time I did it we had used up most of our supplies before making it into the warren. When we actually made it down, one person died, and it became obvious that we couldn't go any further just after the first two fights.
We had to turn around.
However, my complaint about this quest is not about the difficulty - it's what makes this quest fun. It's the lack of reward, particularly, early reward. Getting to the top of the hill is a feat for a low level character in and of itself. There needs to be some reward for making it up there, especially in terms of healing and curing poison. This will help with the second leg of the quest.
Otherwise, I can only see myself doing the Hill part of the quest for the XP (which is rather good) and then turning around. The Hill is a breeze compared to what you face within the warren.
EDIT: I just wanted to give kudos to who ever did the AI for this quest. The Kobolds really work together rather well. I disagree with another poster who said they had too many HP, in most cases they die within a single hit. What makes this quest so damn difficult is how well the little buggers work together as a team.
Quote from: Meldread;86420EDIT: I just wanted to give kudos to who ever did the AI for this quest. The Kobolds really work together rather well. I disagree with another poster who said they had too many HP, in most cases they die within a single hit. What makes this quest so damn difficult is how well the little buggers work together as a team.
Kobold Marksman due to positioning, have too many hp, if the ledges were lined with the regular 4 hp kobolds it would be a non issue, even though they do high damage they can easily be killed. Not to mention the amount of damage they are capable of without blur.
I also don't really see this "team work ai" other than "kobold runs to the edge along with 20 other kobolds and unloads a few stacks of bolts into a person." Thats just a lot of monsters in one place rather than actual ai.
Have you been down into the warren? That's where I am thinking about. There are two or three types of kobolds down there that work -really- well together.
Our group of 5 did this last night. Now, while it was a challenge and we took some MAJOR damage (a few deaths and some close calls) it really tested our ability to work as a group.
We quickly realized that the normal 'run up and hit them' tactic was not going to work. Everyone in the party had a job to do and needed to do it well. Those that could fired at the buggers with bows, while those that couldn't SLOWLY made their way to them.
As for potions...I know I started with 3 cure minor, 2 cure Moderate, and a lesser restor. That's it, no blurr, no luck, none of the others that everyone says you must have to make it through. (still trying to figure out how everyone on the server but me seems to have these thing falling out of the sky at them.....)
But any way I got off my point. I don't know if the Loot drop was fixed or not, but we managed to find enough healing to make it through. Like I said it was anything but a cake walk and those Marksmen are a pain, but with patience and a little thought you can make it through.
If somebody dies, or everybody in the group uses everything they had and don't get it back/rewarded moderately for using, I consider the quest a waste of time, unless the XP is huge >.>
Scalehill is the new Clowns.
Quote from: Goblin Butcher;86641If somebody dies, or everybody in the group uses everything they had and don't get it back/rewarded moderately for using, I consider the quest a waste of time, unless the XP is huge >.>
I was in the same group with Sylvyr, and I think she hit it spot on. It was a mother of a quest, but we did it. It required good team work and a slow steady push.
Yes there were deaths, and yes we blew through -a lot- of consumables (both what we had and what we found) ... tbh I don't exactly remember what the final loot haul was, but I've been on other quests where I didn't get back even a little of what I'd used nor found enough during the quest to really help. So just being able to find what we needed to keep going really helped.
As far as the XP ... well I leveled during the quest, so I'd say the XP was worth it as well.
I like the quest.
Did it last night with the group of 5 as mentioned by Sylvyr and WW.
I like how the kobolds provide a real group effort in protecting their base. it was cool how they maneuvered about. I wouldn't want to see it toned down or nerfed.
Thanks for meaking this quest!
:-D
Quote from: Goblin Butcher;86641If somebody dies, or everybody in the group uses everything they had and don't get it back/rewarded moderately for using, I consider the quest a waste of time, unless the XP is huge >.>
I guess it's a matter of play style. My character is going to go after them, no matter what she may or may not find...that is just her.
As a player I try not to do the quests based on what I will get or how much XP, but based on if it is something my PC would do. In the UD there were a number or quests that I never did, even thou the reward was great, because it wasn't something my PC would do.
When ever I go on a quest, I expect that I or any other memeber of my party can or will die. That is the thrill of the quest. Why go on it if I know I can cake walk it? Why would my character worry herself with X (what ever is being fought) if it poses no threat?
Now this is just me and I don't expect others to play by the same rules..but just thought I would thow it out there.
As for this quest, it is something I would do again. I loved the challenge of it, and like was said it is something my PC would rally against. She would want the warren of Kobalds gone and destroyed, no matter the danger she may face.
One kobold = A target
Fifty kobolds = A problem..
I've tried it myself, I wish I had read about it here before I did. Suffice to say we didn't complete it either but I guess we weren't up for it then.
Pretty sure it can stay as it is and certain parties will still tear through with ease. Since I don't make optimized characters often I won't tell you how much I love this particular quest but I guess you gotta have those tough ones for people/groups who are after real challenges.
But mayybee the min level cap oughta be raised by one because I (almost) died in only two half-assed hits or so without being a 1d4-HP-per level class and even have some decent AC. (No, I wasn't poisoned down to -33 Con at that time either, yet O_o)
Wow and I even thought you'd be finished by the time you reach the top and then there's a full warren of it down below, heeh.
So, I can't speak for the reward, but I guess potions of entropic shield would go a long way..
Died twice in one trip on this quest with my last PC.
We burnt through a ton of healing. Very little reward by comparison.
My first death was from several magic missiles in concert from the casters and I think a melee opponent.
The second death was just downright comical.... I walked out of an AT last (rest of the party already in combat) and was immediately unloaded on by 3 kobolds (who switched targets to shoot at me? not sure). A gust of wind, 3 magic missiles, a combust, and a sneak attack later, I was dead in 2 or 3 rounds.
My overall impression was that the quest really hasn't been worth taking again. Sure, parts of it were fun, but by all rights anyone who survived such an experience would be highly disinclined to go back, ICly or OOCly. ICly, the sheer amount of healing burnt and the number of deaths versus the reward makes it hardly worth the effort unless there's a compelling IC reason to fight the kobolds (which, at present, there isn't). OOCly, losing 5,000 xp on a quest isn't the best of selling points. :)
My own suggestion would simply be to tone down the casters. It seemed like we spawned a LOT of magic missile, gust of wind, combust spamming mages in every battle. Typically 3 or 4 per fight. Given how the AI operates, they seem to gang up on a target and down them pretty quickly. With gust of wind keeping everyone down, it's pretty easy to see a lot of people dying to mage spam.
Mind you, that could be appropriate. Kobolds are nasty buggers and perhaps we should have a place closeby in the module that you just don't go unless you accept the risk factor. I just wouldn't expect people to brave that sort of challenge without good IC reasons to do so. You -know- you're likely going to lose xp, gold, and healing supplies on the venture.
Clowns?
Clowns was never that hard. Drops were non existent, but the pay was pretty good, and a coordinated group could do it fine without special preparation. The problem with Kobolds is they have a LOT of poison, a superior position with only one long way up and overwhelming numbers. And the first half drops nada.
Okay, I can think of a few tricks to get past their positioning (summons and the like], but it does require a different loadout of spells to the usual and you'd need to know to expect that. It would have been a lot better for old EfU, where Choking Powder was common and you could silence the shooeters with it. Yes, blur will bounce the irritating spells off, but unless you have a melee bard or something leading, it's an expensive trick for low reward.
In fact the main thing now is that Colour spray appears to have been tweaked so that PfE doesn't protect you from all the effects, as blinding appears to be able to hit me now.
I think the first bit is the killer, and it's hard enough that there should be a commensurate reward in the drops off the kobolds there.
I went through it with a pretty solid group of 8 people, though I wouldn't call us optimized. We didn't have any deaths leading up the hill. If I can suggest any balance changes here, I'd reduce the effects of the poison bolts to a maximum of 1d2 Con or Str dmg (if this isn't already the case).
That might be applied to inside the warren as well. Even though we had 1 perma death, and all but 2 in our group died at least once, I really enjoyed the challenge. Instead of seeing the quest made easier with spawn removal, I'd rather see the payout increased.
Additionally, I think some ambient loot unique to the quest (Lesser Restores or Light Healing) would help without making it too easy.
Oh WOW! I did this last night and it was truly a grand quest. We had a very balanced group with one fighter, a cleric, a mage or two, and so on. We buffed properly, used consumables at the right times, and DID use a lot of healing. No one died! Not one member. I (the fighter) hit unconscious and bleeding seems like... four times? Seems right. Anyways, we made it through without any deaths, and the xp definitely made up for whatever other losses we incurred.
However, I do think it would be within realism bounds and also a really nice thing for players to stick in a couple anti-venoms and lesser restoration items along the way. Seems like kobolds, one of the more idiotic races of all time, would carry antidotes to their own poison in case their moronic cousin on the tier above them felt like target practice. ;)