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Just something I kind of came up with, inspired by the ammo thread.  Criticize away!

Marksman

Specialized in the use of Bows and Crossbows, the Marksman is a deadly shot, capable of striking terror into the hearts of footmen and lesser ranged adversaries when given range or cover with which to rain death down upon their foes.  Rangers and Fighters most commonly become Marksmen, though Rogues make fearsome Marksmen as well.

• Traits
  
  • Hit Die: 1d6
    
  • Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Discipline, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Lore, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot
    
  • Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+Int Modifier
    
  • BAB Progression: Primary (as Fighter)
    
  • Saves: Fort and Reflex
    
  • Requirements: BAB +3, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Shortbow, Heavy or Light Crossbow, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot or Rapid Reload
• Special Feats:
  
  • Disciplined Shot: An Marksman is a disciplined shot, capable of hitting vital points of his target at close range, even.  This feat stacks with Rogue's Sneak Attack (This is basically Sneak Attack)
    
  • Aimed Shot: As a full round action, a Marksman can make an aimed shot.  The Marksman gains +5 to his attack roll and -5 to his armor class.  As the Marksman advances, aimed shots do more damage. This stacks with Disciplined Shot and Sneak Attack.  This feat also grants Increased Multiplier and Keen Shot at levels 4 and 6.  If damaged while in Aimed Shot mode, a concentration check must be made or the Marksmen automatically leaves Aimed Shot mode and loses his next action.  Each shot fire in Aimed Mode attracts an Attack of Opportunity.
    
  • Cover and Concealment: A Marksman can use surrounding cover and concealment to avoid incoming missile attacks.  The Marksmen gains -2 to his attack rolls and +5 Deflection AC against missile attacks. (An attack mode)
• Class Progression
  
  • Level 1 - Weapon of Choice, Disciplined Shot +1d6, Aimed Shot (+0d6)
    
  • Level 2 - Aimed Shot +1d6, Cover and Concealment
    
  • Level 3 - Disciplined Shot +2d6, Called Shot
    
  • Level 4 - Aimed Shot +2d6, Increased Multiplier (Aimed)
    
  • Level 5 - Disciplined Shot +3d6, Superior Weapon Focus
    
  • Level 6 - Aimed Shot +3d6, Keen Shot (Ki Critical) (Aimed)

Notes:
This class allows for Bow and Crossbow oriented characters to increase their ability to severely damage their opponents.  However, most of their benefits come at the cost of -5 to the Armor Class.  This represent the time it takes to stand still and aim.  Getting hit can spoil an aimed shot, represented by the concentration roll.

Weapon Master feats are available (after all, what is a marksmen but a ranged weapons master).  These come earlier for the marksman, but most of them are only effective in Aimed Shot mode.

Aimed shot mode also cannot be stacked with Rapid Shot and allows only one attack per round, regardless of the attacks per round the PC may get as a result of +6 or greater BAB.

These are balance factors.  A Marksmen is capable of, at the highest level, Firing a Crossbow Bolt at 1d10+6d6+(Any possible Sneak attack), Crit 15-20, x3 or an Arrow at 1d8+6d6+(any Sneak Attack), Crit 17-20, x4.  This comes at -5 AC and needing Concentration checks to maintain the posture.  Concentration Checks and AoOs make it very difficult to use this in close combat.  Low HP also makes it less attractive to use this in close combat.

The PrC allows for Ranged attackers to be formidable opponents at range while negating most of their abilities in close combat.

Devastation Crit: Ranged Weapon of Choice, imo

Jokes aside, I doubt anyone wants to scriipt that aimed shot, if it is even possible, though I do like the idea of the class. There's already Arcane Archer as a ranged prc, however, that is made to fit a completely other concept.

You can always just rock out and get a bow with infinite d6 elemental ammunition.

+0d6 means no damage. You're rolling 0 dice, which each have 6 sides?

Yes, I was just emphasizing that at first it wouldn't give you a damage bonus.

And yeah, it would probably be a real challenge to script.  It's just an idea and I'm not attached to it.  I'm not gonna run out and try to make a marksman PC concept or something.

I really like this.

Quote from: Sandstorm;114864+0d6 means no damage. You're rolling 0 dice, which each have 6 sides?

You know what I mean.

Way overpowered. Completely unbuffed archers doing up to 178 damage per round, assuming no critical hits, no extra damage arrows and a mundane longbow?

178 per round?  You missed something, or I did.

QuoteAimed shot mode also cannot be stacked with Rapid Shot and allows only one attack per round, regardless of the attacks per round the PC may get as a result of +6 or greater BAB.

Aimed Shot is a full round action.  You get one shot per round.  NO rapid fire, no second attacks, etc.

Unbuffed is doing max ~45 per round assuming no critical, no extra damage arrows and a mundane longbow.

That assumes you are close enough for Sneak Attack.

Outside of Sneak range it's max 26.

Rogue in sneak range is max is 63.

All of that is per round.

That's with -5 to AC.  Add to that a lack of damage increasing buffs on Bows anyway...

Compare to a great axe barb assassin... *me shrugs*

Now, on a Crit, you just might kill someone.  And why not?  HP are abstract.  A crit aimed shot from a high level marksmen is an arrow in the eye.  You die.

Kind of like a full damage Great Axe crit could very well sweep your head off your shoulders.

Anytime you get hit while in aiming mode, you need a concentration check or it spoils the aim and the shot.  Archers nailing you while you stand in the open to aim could very well make the ability useless.

Just counterpoints to the statement that it's 'way overpowered'.

It's potentially very powerful in some situations and loses formidability in others.  Like an Greatsword weilding assassin is potentially very powerful in some situations and loses formidability in others.

That said, I can't say it's totally balanced.  It's certainly not tested or anything.  But 'Way overpowered' seems a bit of an alarmist and unfounded statement.

For the requirements, and (relatively) mundane nature of PRC, I do think this is pretty intensely overpowered.

4 attacks @ 1d8 + 6d6 at a high ab. = about 100 damage a round.

You can certainly up the requirements.  Add Weapon Specialization in the chosen weapon and up the BAB requirement to 5 or 6 or even more!

The feats simply represent the mundane aspect of being able to aim and snipe someone to great effect, while accounting that aim can be spoiled and you are unguarded from threats while you maintain intense focus on hitting your target just so.

Sniping (a very realistic action for bowmen) is relatively unaccounted for NWN.  Even "throat slitting" has a place, with a successful Assassin Death Attack, which, when successful, does a high amount of sneak attack damage and then leaves the target completely at the mercy of the Assassin's follow up sneak attacks for several rounds.

But William Tell'ism is completely absent.

I would be interested in seeing what the statistical numbers are, though.

A min-maxed fighter or rogue who takes this PrC at the earliest opportunity both with mundane gear and no buffs as well as kitted out with 'full' buffs vs other min-maxed dmg output character concepts.  In a variety of situations.  Dungeons, open fields, obstacles separating folks... given the reality of visual range, attack range, time it takes to run to the PC, invis ganks, etc.

Would be neat.  It could very well be 'way overpowered'.  Just think it's hard to say so without seeing it mathematically.


Gippy:

Quote4 attacks @ 1d8 + 6d6 at a high ab. = about 100 damage a round.

QuoteAimed shot mode also cannot be stacked with Rapid Shot and allows only one attack per round, regardless of the attacks per round the PC may get as a result of +6 or greater BAB.

Gotta actually read what's there.  When using Aimed shot you get 1 attack per round.  That's it.  Period.

This is ridiculously overpowered.  What is with this recent outbreak of "ranged characters suck"?  Why should/would a ranged character be going more damage than a melee character?

The power behind ranged weapons is not getting attacked.  That's advantage enough.  You aren't risking yourself tanking on the front while drinking potion after potion to stay alive, constantly worried about the dreaded double crit.  You sit safely in the back launching arrows miraculously over the backs of your allies into the faces of your enemies.  You have terrain advantage which makes it easy to run away.  Furthermore, you and a buddy can take a bow and exploit a creature's AI by firing from opposite sides so it keeps switching targets while never reaching either of you.  People also use them to exploit AI by luring single enemies from a mob one at a time.  And I forgot to mention that ranged combat further breaks AI because it will cause an enemy to break combat with a melee character, invoking an AoO while trying to run past the melee character, only to just forget about it and reengaged in melee immediately.

Ranged weapons are good enough as they are in NWN.  They offer a very low risk option for characters that don't want to get hurt, at the cost of not being able to do as much damage as someone with high STR can deal in melee.  They also offer a fighter-type a way to get in a few free hits before an enemy closes the distance

lol, hax

Anyways. The concept is alright. But yeah. It still does seem overpowered.

All this recent talk of archer PCs makes me want to play one.  The challenge seems fun.  Hopefully this won't happen for some time, though.

P.S.-- Scotty played a pretty darn effective archer fairly recently.

Eh, archers now aren't completely underpowered and they are interesting to play. I think maybe not work to make them the best of the best but keep them fun for everyone. Winning every fight with a wtfpwn archer doesn't always translate into fun.

QuoteWhy should/would a ranged character be going more damage than a melee character?

This concept is likely not suitable for EfU... that said, I still fail to see that it is unbalanced unless you prescribe to what the above quoted statement implies.

Certainly a viable stance, and DnD isn't necessarily meant to be 'realistic'.  Regardless of their statement that HP are abstract, the reality is people have been dropping their level uber characters out of 10 story buildings and surviving off the bounce for years (10d6 HP just doesn't kill most 10th level fighters).

However, to answer the question realistically, why should/would a ranged character be doing more damage than a melee character?  Well, perhaps they wouldn't, hit for hit.  But it seems that a good marksman should be able to put an arrow into someone's eye as easily as a skilled axeman might cleave a person's head from his shoulders.

The former simply isn't included in DnD while the latter is.  This PrC represents an Archer with the skill to do just that.  A Weapon Master of the bow, if you will.  If he gets that aimed shot off, certainly it's gonna hurt.  The trick is making him "Work" for that shot.

I haven't seen many situations in EfU:A where having an ability like this will make you some sort of one man wrecking crew.  Twists and turns in corridors, enemy raned attackers, and the brilliant RI (real intelligence) of other players will severely hamper the ability of someone to use the 'Aimed Shot' Feat.

Anyway, constructive criticism is always welcome.  Like I said, this may not be for EfU:A at all, the DMs work hard at maintaining a good balance all around.  9Lives statement about low reqs and Exile's points about balance are points well received.


[edit: As an aside, defenses are based on not being shown exactly how a concept like this would give this concept some sort of insurmountable advantage against other powerful concepts and not some whacky clinging on to the idea that it's viable for EfU:A]

My point about requirements was more aimed at any roleplay aspects of the class. This is some person that has a steady hand and keen eye, not an unholy master of the Undead, or the disciple of a mighty Wyrm.

I still assert that your criticism was constructive.

Denial is futile.

Neat archers and marksmen can certainly receive special loot, but I don't think a prestige class of this kind would be worth doing even if it was possible - which it isn't.

Overpowered but oh! so awesome. This needs tweakage, but it also ought to happen.

I endorse the idea but not the mechanics. Tone it way down and add specific niche would be my advice.

Also, archers are not underpowered at all, but I do think a few tweaks here and there could make them more fun to play.

As an interesting post script, the Order of the Bow Initiate PrC in the Complete Warrior's handbook is pretty much along the same lines.  Take away the 'sneak attack', take away the 'penalties' on the Aimed attack and make it a touch stronger (+1d8s instead of 1d6s) ut shorten the range and you just about have it.

So didn't need to make one up.

Thanks to everyone who had input and discussed this with me.  It was thought provoking.

Justice of Weald and Woe.

Shame it's Race/Faction specific.

What's so wrong with the traditionnal classes that so many PrCs suggestion arise these days?

I laughed. Well done.

Quote from: Letsplayforfun;114943What's so wrong with the traditionnal classes that so many PrCs suggestion arise these days?

Been wondering myself!

I was totally jumping on the bandwagon.  It was there, it looked fun, and I hopped on.

Who knows, maybe I had a brilliant idea (which, of course, it is, just for somewhere else ;) ).

Pure archers can actually do a shitload of dmg, and they don't require anything else than a mundane bow >_>

I would consider things like this:

Requirements:

Point Blank Shot
Called Shot
Concentration 8 Ranks (lvl 5)
Dex 16

Bonuses:

1. +1 attack with ranged weapon (Weapon of choice)
2.
3. Improved Crit Feat for Ranged Weapon
4. +1 to attack with ranged weapon
5. +20 to attack with Ranged Weapon 1/day
6.
7. +1 to attack with ranged weapon
8.
9.
10. +1 to attack with ranged weapon, +20 to attack 2/day

As an aside, the Called Shot is IMO weak, as the targets for it (stuff you don't want getting up in your face) are also the sort of things that have good Discipline and will shrug it off Never got much use out of that on PCs :(.

A marksman should be able to call a shot. Plus having the requirement will make it so that not every archer will automatically take the PrC.

FYI: The odds of getting 36 from a 6d6 is roughly 0.00214%  Which is one in every 46,656 rolls

Pfft. Numbers!
I can roll 6 1s in a row with my hands tied behind my back.

I thought we had already moved past this. Howland said it's not even possible to script, even if we wanted to, which we shouldn't--since it was very very overpowered for this server.

PRC: Threadomancer, perhaps?

FYI

It is possible for archers to inflict damage and I agree with ExileStrife  being in the back fireing arrows is advantage enough. But you also forget you can do tons of damage with sneak attack a lvl 5+ Archer with a bow is murder in any fight (if U have a front-liner of course.) What we do need is a wizards PRC in my OP.

hai drd (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Archmage)

-Necromancy-

I'm not sure whether the post sized sig or the forum necromancy is more obnoxious.

Rogue Archer..

Locked. Not viable.

Please don't try to resurrect threads from years ago. >_>