In my opinion, Mutilating someones hand, arm, leg, tongue, almost anything that comes with IC impairments is a last resort option. This should be so because from the character who is getting mutilated's perception, they have much less reason to want to play said character. Instead of resorting to impairing a players character on first, second, or even third encounter, try and do something else that might represent the action you are trying to do.
Say, cut a finger, toe, ear, or nose off, so that they still are mutilated, but not in a way that would affect their gameplay. We are all people behind those little characters, and from my perspective, there would be no reason to play a PC who has one arm, or one hand, their "adventuring days" would be over in a IC sense.
And sure, you can TRY and play it off, but it draws from the fun of the game.
This has nothing to do with anything that happened to me IG, other than I quit the PC. But that's on me.
I just think that there should be more thought going into such a extreme measure of action.
_ end rant
Mechanically, limb-loss IS more crippling than killing someone and forcing their friends to pay for a raise - something oft forgotten - whether or not frequent resurrections are immersion breaking is another matter.
I really don't know if its just a consequence of players not pushing plots hard enough, but I have seen more PCs come back from the dead than have their lost-limbs regrown. Its really a very permanent impairment for a world saturated with magic.
This is just my experience but I notice maiming is often used to make a statement of "look how tough I am," as opposed to the result of prolonged conflict between PCs. As a villain your goal is to make people want to kill you, and hate you, but most of all cherish interacting with you. Humiliating your foe: Stealing a prized weapon, draining blood, caning your foe, or chopping off his dwarfbeard gets the job done.
Quote from: Dillusionist;392151As a villain your goal is to make people want to kill you, and hate you, but most of all cherish interacting with you.
I disagree, just because a character is a villain doesn't mean they should have to make people want to kill them, villain characters have goals and amazing stories too, most of the time they're better than Paladin no. 666, they should be treated as more than monstrous PCs.
However, onto the topic, I've never had a character maimed so my experience is laughable at best, but severe maiming certainly should be used like FD, only when it's appropriate.
Yes, limb loss is definitely something to hold in a much higher regard then scarring or even death. It's sometimes better to provide an interesting end then to maim, especially if what you're maiming hinders their ability to function in a serious way. Like taking a hand or arm off a two-hander or spellcaster, consider a leg instead.
Unless they down right deserve to suffer, but again, deciding if its been EARNED should be a big deal.
If my PC is a grizzled warrior who says "Touch my fucking chicken again and you lose the hand", and someone goes "Tee hee okay [pokes chicken]"
That sumbitch is losing a hand.
It's all a matter of IC events/DM presence/RP of your PC but the way I see it IC is IC. If you run up and depants a Bhaalan murderer sometimes you're gonna get murdered.
I know humility and cowardice and such in EFU are something that people are very "HAW HAW PROVE IT" until hands start coming off, but if you cut off enough hands people will go "Fuck I'm not gonna touch Gerald's chicken, and you shouldn't either".
From what I have seen, losing a limb actually brings more challenge to your pc. People in the past have actually been able to turn their weakness into losing a limb into their strength, look at Jeb Rattles. He lost his hand, got a metal hand that made him stronger. Perhaps it is annoying but you should look at the possibilities and options this may open.
Quote from: Deadlykate;392160From what I have seen, losing a limb actually brings more challenge to your pc. People in the past have actually been able to turn their weakness into losing a limb into their strength, look at Jeb Rattles. He lost his hand, got a metal hand that made him stronger. Perhaps it is annoying but you should look at the possibilities and options this may open.
Mari and Baelian have also lost limbs, and they are still going on strong.
Going to come down with RwG on this one. If you get in the situation where someone might mutilate your PC, giving them lip or otherwise provoking them isn't going to help. You can only expect people to bend what's IC so far in the name of everyone having a good time, and keeping the cool conflict times a-rollin'.
People shouldn't be hacking bits off willy-nilly, but all pvp is really a two-way street.
Losing a limb isn't ALWAYS a bad thing. As others have said, sometimes it turns into some DM plot thing where you get some juju hand/arm, or a metal replacement, or some special training to overcome it, whatever.
But at the same time impairing someone should REALLY come with a good reason. Not just 'cause you really don't like someone or wanted to kill them but decided to be "merciful" in impairing them. It can really cripple a concept completely (such as spellcasters or someone focused completely on using a two handed weapon).
If you do something specifically to earn it, you earned it. But it shouldn't be something you do just because you think it sounds badass or something. It's a big deal, as big a deal as FD if not bigger.
If you dont kill or maim the PC, 9/10 times they come right back, invis with 3 other people fully buffed and do exactly to you what you didn't do to them. Which is okay, I dont object to that. Its IC.
But it's also IC that its idiotic to capture your worst enemy, traitor, or rebel to your cause, beat them up, then let them off with no true scar. If you dont wanna lose an arm, dont put yourself in a position that you might lose an arm. If you go around screaming "Suck my balls" at ganglords, yeah, you are gonna lose an arm, and that's entirely your own fault.
instead of full limb loss, go scarification. Cut off PARTS of an ear, snip someones lip in two to give them a hair, or a nostril. or just take the end of a pinky or ring finger. That sort of thing.
Perhaps the victim should consider this before he or she decides to engage someone known for removing limbs? Perhaps a degree of fear in fighting certain people should arise.
If I icly knew "This guy removes limbs if you lose" I would be terrified of fighting them. Because they can really mess up your day. Dieing is exp loss, limb loss is a highly difficult stat hit to remove. You can't just go to your friendly neighborhood cleric and ask for a restoration, your sol if someone chops off a limb.
So in all honesty, ritualistic maimers/murders/bhallites should be held in greater fear then your normal murderers in a land of magical revival.
And when you lose a limb it isn't the end of your pc. Your in the underdark, where losing a limb is the least of your worries. If your intelligent about what you do. The chances of ending up legless/armless/handless are low.
I'd say the character I had the most fun with in EFU was a cripple (before it was cool). Granted, I went into that concept knowing that was the case, but there are many ways to make being amputated work to your advantage. For example, anytime someone wanted to hit my character (often) I'd play the "you wouldn't hit a cripple card" (disclaimer only works in some situations) :)
EFU is a really tough challenge, you are going to die, you are going to have set backs, and on rare occasions, you might lose a limb. The key to the game, in my humble opinion, is overcoming those set backs- not cruising through without hardship and hitting level 10. Hardship is what its about.
No build is "destroyed" as long as your character is still alive. Adapt, use these things as spring boards to interact with other PC's and NPC's who might help you overcome.
Do correct me if I am wrong, but the mechanical penalties for losing a left arm is simply that you can't hold two-handed weapons. It doesn't even affect AB or reduce the number of attacks a, let's say, monk, has. Mechanically, it barely hurts to lose a left arm. Perhaps doesn't hurt at all.
Quote from: Ziya;392213Do correct me if I am wrong, but the mechanical penalties for losing a left arm is simply that you can't hold two-handed weapons. It doesn't even affect AB or reduce the number of attacks a, let's say, monk, has. Mechanically, it barely hurts to lose a left arm. Perhaps doesn't hurt at all.
It also applies spellcasting failure. Something I've learned on Seivjar.
You may no longer use a tower/large shield if you loose your left hand. That is pretty significant in some quarters.
However, I am a fan of limb-loss as an alternative to murdering people.
In DND the spell restoration can restore lost limbs and such so long as the character wasn't born with the deformity. This should be something considered by the DMs because it's a spell that is hard to come by though at the same time people getting cut up can really encourage their players to get bummed out. If I were playing a melee fighter and lost an arm, I'd much rather be killed than become useless.
Unless you happen to dual-wield or use a two-handed a weapon. Unless you're built specifically to use one of those two styles but now cannot. Some people can work with that and still have fun- others don't. Nothing against them, if you're not enjoying playing your character, you should make one that you can enjoy.
Losing a limb isn't something that should be downplayed because a DM will hook me up in a month or two. It's as serious as anything else, and if it's earned, get to hacking. If not, there are other ways to make your enemy 'feel' their loss.
Indeed, the mechanical of lost limbs can be more or less crippling depending on your opponent, thus I would consider this as a weighting factor before mutilating someone (or to choose the appropriate body part...).
Don't forget, you can just as easily, for sake of conflict intensity - clip away fingers, ears, nose, or even castrate your target These do not generally come with permanent and crippling mechanical consequences (depending on the overseeing DM, maybe a slight CHA reduction, maybe WIS if you pluck an eye).
Before chopping off an arm of a two-handed fighter or a spellcaster, consider the other options available, and trust in your fellow player to accordingly update his PC's description and roleplay appropriately.
Quote from: Ziya;392213Do correct me if I am wrong, but the mechanical penalties for losing a left arm is simply that you can't hold two-handed weapons. It doesn't even affect AB or reduce the number of attacks a, let's say, monk, has. Mechanically, it barely hurts to lose a left arm. Perhaps doesn't hurt at all.
... For one class. For several others it is not only quite literally crippling but utterly destructive. Specifically fighters, dual wielders and anyone who does 1h+board.
I lost an arm as a Dual Wield and Shortbow Rogue once, as an example. I could use neither that I had invested feats in.
That wasn't fun.
Any shield-bearer is forced to go down to bucklers, losing AC, and that's just if they lose the hand. If they lose the whole arm, they're fucked. No shield at all. Big loss in livability, typically 2-3 AC.
And honestly, I rarely see limb mutilations done well.
I've seen it done, tacked onto a complete mugging of a PC's supply and gold after abusing a bugged summon to win in the first place, I've seen it done when the PC in question was not even the person who subdued them/won the conflict, I've seen it done in a number of bad ways and never really a 'good' one.
It can be a
very permanent thing in the grand scheme of how EFU works.
Quote from: thelotusflower;392217In DND the spell restoration can restore lost limbs and such so long as the character wasn't born with the deformity. This should be something considered by the DMs because it's a spell that is hard to come by though at the same time people getting cut up can really encourage their players to get bummed out.
If you loose a limb, it has been ruled on EFU that no amount of regeneration/restoration/greater restoration will restore your person unless a DM says so- and most times, they won't. Loosing a limb a serious business and should take an equally serious effort to regain it, other than "lol I found greater restoration scroll."
The only time that I really find it fitting that somebody has lost their entire arm, or half of it for that matter is; a result to an epic confrontation in which it was lost in the heat of battle, a dire bear or similarly vicious predator biting off your arm/leg, or perhaps even some infestation such as Slaadi or worse.
I think, as a legal punishment, it's much more common for somebody to lose their fingers, hands, eyes, tongues, or even get branded before the possibility of removing the entirety of their arm is even an option... it doesn't even make sense.
The only reason that it's really an option is because it can be represented IG visually with the PC model.
We can come up with classier ways. Don't let the limits of the game limit your roleplay.
Yea, that's quite the hefty penalties for certain builds, as much as it might be negligible for the lucky few.
I still remember William and how I wince OOC-ly as I watch his months-long struggle to restore his arm and fail repeatedly. The difficulty of 'restoring a limb' in EFU is such that it seems if someone does have a build focused on being two-handed and lose an arm, he is essentially mechanically screwed.
Quote from: Spiffy Has;392221If you loose a limb, it has been ruled on EFU that no amount of regeneration/restoration/greater restoration will restore your person unless a DM says so- and most times, they won't. Loosing a limb a serious business and should take an equally serious effort to regain it, other than "lol I found greater restoration scroll."
How many Greater Restoration scrolls have you found? It should certainly be more difficult to bring people back from the dead than to regrow their limbs. But as someone has already stated, it's far easier just to die and be raised.
I cannot say I agree with those opposing limb loss. Nor can I say I understand why you believe that a limb loss is more detrimental than death. Death should by no means be a temporary move. It should, above all other things be the end of your characters tale, the part where you and others say good bye to that Character.
I understand, that every now and then people thwart death, that the death you received did not feel justified nor warranted be it is what it is.
In my eyes, a limb removal avoids death. When I plan to kill a character I do so because I do not want that characters story to end and this is my alternative to them. It is my opportunity to them to welcome the challenge of a lost limb, take it into their story and use it to find new and interesting solutions.
While yes, not all DM's are wanting or have the time to aid players who have lost those limbs I would also point out that a player taking a limb does need to confer with a DM on the matter.
Furthermore I think that if you have suffered such a crippling consequence to your actions towards another character or group, you should have time to truly suffer. Too often do we bring down the guillotine on interactions that could have lasted more longer and been far more interesting.
To me, a Hero that lost his limb to a villain and slowly recovered from that tragedy ,by either replacing or learning to do without the limb. Who then proceeds to enact vengeance on the villain is a far more interesting story from an outside perspective. Than say the Hero was brutally butchered or more common than not, was killed, brought back and ganked him with superior numbers.
I have, on numerous occasions played PC's with lost limbs. Some from creation but more often than not taken during conflict or DM events. More often than not these characters have gone on to be my most enjoyable and while certainly frustrating I am glad I stuck with them to achieve what I did with them.
Quote from: thelotusflower;392224How many Greater Restoration scrolls have you found? It should certainly be more difficult to bring people back from the dead than to regrow their limbs. But as someone has already stated, it's far easier just to die and be raised.
Several in my time- granted, they aren't 'common', they are even 'rare', but they do drop from time to time. They can also be made (items with it) So yes, it is easier to die/get raised than it is to restore a limb- but that is the double standard of efu, replacing a soul into a body (and heal what killed them) is apparently much easier for the gods than it is to regrow a limb from scratch!
I already weighed in here, but I want to mention one more thing. Mechanics are important, but the moment they take precedence over story telling they do a great disservice to the server. Losing an limb would mean far more to your character than, "hey I can't use my shield" it should define one of the major challenges in their hero's journey. A true hero always gets the piss knocked out of him at first before coming back to triumph over their enemy.
If it's really fitting for your character, for some wacky, perverted reason to go and mutilate your target, then that's IC. It never hurts to have thought of courtesy in it, but neither you nor target should feel horrible OOC, and neither side should take guilt for it, or be persecuted over it.
If this is however an intention of yours, you will need a DM there to see it through. This isn't something you do just to whip it off. It is macabre act. In some cases, it's involved in law enforcement in the crude style, where it fits. That's case by case. It is still quite disturbing and should be something done only if it truly reflects your concept and characteristic, or there was a reason to it.
It's pointless to go into many arguments of it, as each event is it's own individual and unique beast. Small reasons, nuances, situation, time, place - all are in effect.
That's my piece on it and I tend to go by it as I happen to oversee anything like it.
How can cutting a guy's arm or leg be worse than cutting it's ugly head off?
If you can respawn/raise dead, don't tell me the wizards and clerics of Faerun haven't figured out a way to make limbs grow back...
I say there's too much focus on OOC. Some people simply don't fear PvP because they know the other player(s) won't straight up kill your ass or maim you into a medieval wheelchair.
I have seen my fair share of defiant knights knocked down prone, then laugh at the face of those threatening their very existence. Then they get killed and complain, boohoo, grief!
I want to see characters beg for their lives, like insects. Because when you're knocked prone and a guy is holding his sword to your neck, that's what you are, a miserable insect awaiting to be crushed!
There are ways to restore limbs. None of them are easy. The 'raise dead' option is available due to OOC reasons, as it truly does suck to loose a third of your xp over something critting you with his scythe when you lagged.