Hello, there seems to be an extremely large amount of Alchemy created items that do damage, and have use per day on them. I am curious how other people feel about them. I personally think that they are not very entertaining, as I have never once seen them be roleplayed, only used to get an advantage in PvP.
Are there supposed to be so many of these items being handed out to various Players? Should they really be use/day, letting those PCs who have mass collected them easily do what other PCs cannot, spam magical spells without any backdraw?
I think that the server would be better off with a limit of 2 or 3 that a alchemist can make of certain strong items that are commonly used now-a-days.
The only potent PVP alchemical things that I have seen weigh like, 15 pounds and are single use
And they aren't that great anyway.
If I recall, most of those items are limited to the number one alchemist can make. At least the stronger ones.
The truly potent alchemical items have some massive timers on them to reduce their proliferation. I've seen 21 weeks + of a timer on creating certain singular items. Others are limited to creation by the PC to few times.
There's a lot of IC methods to limit alchemical proliferation though.
I can't think of a single strong "pvp alchemy item" that has uses/day. Not that can't be replicated by common drops from many regular quests anyway.
All the strong stuff is limited by weight, or charges/use(or single use), or both.
I'll not dance around it. The spamming of the ether domain of alchemy for pvp goods is rather ridiculous and I've seen many an alchemist do it. I would suggest that this branch of alchemy be looked into in particular. And if the dm team wishes I can give a full break down of the items in question in a pm.
There are many areas of alchemy with powerful things that can be mass produced off an assembly line. It is up to the alchemist to be responsible and not exploit this. If it is then it is good to mention it to DMs so they might add a cooldown to its production rate or a limit to how many can be made. Some of these things can be very creative and even serve lots of purpose outside of combat mechanics, but they loose their value and very quickly become a rather undesirable (in my opinion) situation when ten of them are made each day without limit. So please, to the alchemists, be responsible and be reasonable about what you make and what you are injecting into the server. There was an example of this not long ago with a certain item that was easily made with many charges that did unblockable damage and stunning which was getting mass produced literally by the dozens. Just please don't do that, and if it is getting abused let a DM know so they can tweak the system so that the few bad apples don't spoil the whole crate.
Please PM me all the items that people perceive to be overpowering in PvP or post them to "Exploitable Bug Reports."
From what I've seen, the Alchemy use/day items can be used in PvP, but they are far from ideal due to how little damage they do. Give me a tanglefoot bag any day.
Quote from: ShadowCharlatan;392178- to make recipes randomised for each individual PC
There are far too many people who carry recipes over from other characters or atleast the most basic knowledge of how to acquire new recipes, on to their newer characters. If they were randomly generated for each new character, that'd help out a lot.
I like the idea of randomizing the alchemy recipes for each PC. Asheron's call I had a similar system, where the PC's name acted as a randomization key that would scramble the recipes.
Another idea, that would fit well with SC's suggestion, would be for crafters to choose an elemental affinity which affect quality of the alchemical shards. E.g, an affinity with fire will give you +50% quality on fire shard, but -50% on all others.
Both options combined would yield to a different dynamic to the alchemy system, specifically we have :
- Incentivized collaborative alchemy (with the affinity system)
- rendered the (often frowned-upon) sharing of exact alchemical recipes impossible.
- rendered recipe meta-gaming impossible.
I don't see how randomization would change the basics. However it'd make the whole system very solo-like, seeing as you can't really use other alchemists and their research or teach an apprentice anything solid.
Just a thought, but why not make powerful recipes require more than 1 alchemist to complete? It would be nice to see small groups of alchemists risking life and death to make these stronger items and certainly give an incentive to take on apprentices.
Edit: ^^ To my knowledge, that already (kind of) exists in the system, where 'master' alchemists are encouraged to have less capable alchemists around to complete easier parts of the crafting process to spread cooldowns and such around. It's not a requirement (as far as I know) but it is very beneficial.
EFU's crafting systems are already incredibly complex and only appealing to a certain percentage of the playerbase because of that. Making the entry cost even steeper by randomizing recipes seems what it will best accomplish is to disincentive playing an alchemist. Metagaming recipies is bad, but learning under the tutelage of an established alchemist could be really fun and great rp.
Forcing random experimentation for every PC (not just those that choose to learn by themselves) with a system that can easily perm your character seems overly harsh. But maybe that's just me!
Getting rid of portable kits would also be an interesting fix. It'd mean that alchemists/herbalist would be encouraged to travel in groups due to the dangerous nature of the dark. Perhaps sites could be made with certain boni and mali towards different kinds of herbalism and alchemical schools.
I disagree 10,000% with the idea of "Groups of alchemist". Alchemy is supposed to be something hermetic and locked away in a tower doing weird magics and unforseen feats to acquire more power, more secrets, and more hazardous feats to advance.
If anything I think -POTION BREWING AND WAND CRAFTING- should be nerfed as they are supremely devistating for PvP interactions.
The RP of a potion merchant is as follows:
"Sup I need some potions"
"Cool how many"
"Ten haste potions"
"Cool got gold?"
"Yep"
"Cool"
"Thanks"
Alchemy is something that can and has killed countless PCs with risk of PERMA DEATH TO THEIR PCS. Potion Brewers and Wand Crafters are an inexhaustable resource so long as PCs have golds they can have 10,000,000 tools to combat people in PvP and on DM encounters.
The Alchemical system vastly surpasses the Potion and Wand system as alchemical PCs can be hunted and killed, raised up like small gods, use their products to push an agenda, and more. These cries of "Nerf Alchemy" are constant but no one ever seems to care that with two button clicks and minimal RP a PC can go from having 0 haste pots to 10 haste pots.
Hours on end have to be thrown at the alchemical system to get anywhere and even then one mistake can see you turned into a pile of ash on the ground.
A feat, a potion cauldron, limited RP, and empty magic bottles can give PCs almost unlimited resources.
Alchemists are uncovering the secrets of the universe and in my opinion should be pursued by many powers. In the past Gangs have abducted alchemists and forced them to make drugs. I once had a PC who was hired to murder one of Lower's most prominent alchemists by a citizen of Upper Sanctuary.
Potions and Wands are far more broken than Alchemy in every shape, scope, and cycle, and the constant "Alchemy needs nerf" threads bug me when Potions and Wands are so easily made.
Clerics, Bards, WIzards, SOrcerors, take one feat and you can break the server.
Alchemists throw hours, days, weeks, and more into their craft and can die at any moment. That's balanced. That's fair.
[/rant]
Quote from: Random_White_Guy;392237Clerics, Bards, Wizards, Sorcerors, take one feat and you can break the server.
Isn't that a bit of an overstatement?
If the original point is that there are alchemy items that make pvp unfair, I think RWG's own rebuttal is rather accurate.
It will always come down to haves, and have-nots. If Alchemy were not in the mix, it would be the people with potions and wands winning the pvps. Alchemy provides another element to the pvp dynamic that makes pvp interesting, rather than a rush of potion quaffing, a dispel, then click on the red thing.
If you feel that alchemical items are the way to win fights, then befriend an alchemist and get some, IMO. Clearly winning fights is the driving motivation behind the original post, and the OP feels unfairly done by, by the addition of so many ways to do so.
I have to agree with RwG if you think about the rollplay shouldn't potion brewers be considered on the same level of alchemists? As potion brewing in PnP was considered an -alchemical- process, I've noticed here its more "hurr durr cast spell on bottle BAM" now I myself have played several potion brewers and I honestly think potion brewing would be better off having its own tree in the alchemical system (Maybe involving that nifty aqua regia??? Which says its used in potion making??) So potion brewers are encouraged to become actual alchemists and they can put some good rp into it as well. Now some people might be saying that it would be giving alchemists yet more advantage but in truth its just making alchemy complete and making potion brewing some actual business and study as it rply should be. Alchemy has been nerfed hard as it is and many of the OP super items removed, what I think Gloinar is experiencing is also remnants from when it wasn't. Those items are still going to float about, but eventually they will be gone.
As to divine potion brewing I think that is on a different scale.. Perhaps make brewing potions restricted to healing potions (since for priests it really does involve casting prayers.) and some select other potions and integrate the rest into an alchemy tree. As to suggestions on the alchemy tree make it not impossibly hard nor super dangerous just make it take a bit more time and research, with increasing DCs for stronger potions.
I also think that portable kits should reman but perhaps make the scattered ones give bonuses as they are often in dangerous or hostile areas (perhaps make them a bit more hostile too! To make the prospect of a bonus considerable but dangerous)
That's my thought anyways.
Clearly I have missed something. I can not recall a single pvp I have ever been in where an alchemy item have been used, to my knowlege that is.
Quote from: prestonhunt;392242Clearly winning fights is the driving motivation behind the original post, and the OP feels unfairly done by, by the addition of so many ways to do so.
Uhhhhhhh What? No. Sorry I dont care about losing fights at all, I only think that there are a massive amount of Ether items being passed around and it looks rather stupid to watch someone use the same item over and over again. During PvP, during quests, whatever. I think using an abundance of Alchemy created items should come with proper representation of it, through roleplay- which I've yet to see. There is nothing against any particular player, as it isn't a problem with the player, but the items in question. I personally think the server could be better served without such a high amount of Alchemy items as there currently are. I am just one opinion on the matter, however.
I think the main problem is that the same players are consistently, over and over, getting the high tier alchemy items on their characters due to OOC knowledge of the system. If people conceptualize products from hard-work and experience, there's nothing wrong with that. But there are players who exploit their knowledge to mass produce things that can completely turn the course of a battle.
I think people are underestimating the time, effort and dangers to alchemy. Sure you can get some nice items out of it. You could also permanently die. The only alchemist I played probably had a half dozen deaths just from recipes. The fact that compressed ether gives you a relatively meager attack twice a day is not a problem. The fact that some PCs roll out with an alchemist and know every dangerous recipe to avoid might be.
If someone used Ethers in PvP, I would be thanking them. Compared to base damage, they are garbage. They are absolutely a situation dependent tool, and not some OP means of domination. The only time I've ever used Ethers in PvP is when I derped and didn't have tanglefoot bags quick slotted to catch that running pc, who is chugging pots of heal and retreat. By the way, the 6 or so damage those Ethers did weren't exactly worth it, as said PC was easily able to escape while my PC tried to kill him with papercuts.
Now, in PvE, they are very useful.
As for RPing using them...
Personally, in PvP, I tend not to RP such things prior to a battle. The reason being is that while I type out a big, fluffy, emote, that other guy is downing potions like it's his job. I have used them plenty of times in RP not centered on PvP.
Just my two cents. I think this is being blown way out of proportion.
Alchemy can be spammed and turn intense moments into trivialities. Situations in which this happened are the following:
-Fighting the white dragon in Efu:M
-The attack on H'bala's tower by the druids and everyone still on ymph.
Both of these used heavy alchemical supply to turn part or all of it into a no challenge.
Alchemy is there to make single potent and powerful items, not a war chest with eighty firebombs in it, or allowing thirty plus people to wield hammers from the heavens like nothing.
Alchemy is dangerous, it deserves to remain dangerous. And it deserves to be rewarding.
My suggestion is, making dc's fluctuate, that will handle most of the issues in alchemy when it comes to production spamming. If you have an obscenely high score you can handle a variation of five fluctuation up or down at the start but the more you make it the greater the fluctuation and eventually it will be impossible or easy to accomplish, this prevents spam. Making alchemy more chaotic and up to luck then sheer number crunching, it could show a collapse in the weave as you constantly work at just one item.
To be fair, the system was reworked following the events within the Hbala'n tower, and much of that original wealth has been done away with. What we have now is nothing compared to then.
As for the White Dragon encounter, I just think that Dms should be mindful of what explosives may do the terrain, cave systems, or what impacts may do to massive bags of said glass fire bombs. That being said, the increase and use of WEIGHT as a mitigating power is pretty awesome and effective. You're not going to lug around 120 lbs for 4 mighty fireballs for the hell of it unless you've literally nothing else to carry. Which means less potions, wands, trinkets, etc.
There are some items that havent had their weight increased, and some that maybe should. Although for the most part, The people that enjoy the alchemy system in efu are those that have enjoyed it in the past, so there is a natural understanding of how the system works upon character changeover. That will drastically aid future endeavors, especially since we no longer have research teaching people what is what. There is a learning curve, like in every other part of efu.
That being said, there is something to take away from both RwG's statements and ShadowCs. Dunno, I don't see a big issue here, never have.
As odd as it may sound, Zango is right.
Comparing craft wand/potions which is available to all, easily, to Alchemy -- a system -- that was ridiculously abused by various PCs, including ex-DMs-which-we-wont-name, makes being all those who see 0 interest (myself included) in this boring system at a FRANK disadvantage.
We might not see Level 9 summons crushing faces -- BUT I`m sure that back in the day when you were a PC on the victim side of being abused by alchemical powerhouses, you felt quite ...robbed.
Hence, if that feeling pertains -- it's a strong hint that this system requires a strong revision ... yet again.
A quick reread of the original post would seem to be objecting to the "compressed ether" item, Mort. This is hardly a powerhouse, allowing you to cast searing light (5) 2/day.
To put it lightly, whoopdy-freaking-doo.
A quick reread of the original post would seem to be objecting to the "compressed ether" item, Mort. This is hardly a powerhouse, allowing you to cast searing light (5) 2/day.
To put it lightly, whoopdy-freaking-doo. Maybe it would be a negative experience if 20 halflings simultaneously dropped out of stealth on you and did it at once, but certainly no more negative than the same 20 halflings dropping out of stealth and shooting you with arrow sneaks.
Honestly, there is something wrong with Alchemy, although I don't think it's related to what most people here are saying. I just HATE the "nerf solution" some usually point out to stuff they don't like or understand.
Alchemy/Herbalism is HARD. It's DANGEROUS. Actually, it's FREAKING DAMN DANGEROUS. It's complicated. It's demanding. And if you want to use herbs not being a druid/ ranger, it's EVEN MORE COMPLICATED, unless you don't care for picking clean all herbs.
It's been done several tries of making it even more DANGEROUS. It's been done several "nerfs" in order to make it LESS rewarding. It's been placed several obstacles in order to make it even more COMPLICATED.
And it has not stopped the "nerf cry outs". And it has not stopped people from supposedly abusing it. And it has not made it any better for people like me, who struggle to get how it works, who die on a huge regular basis and die even more when trying a low hp class that can't walk the wilds in safety.
I have never got a really strong item from Alchemy/ Herbalism. I usually am encumbered when I roll an alchemist/ herbalist. I am slightly better when doing it as druid. And it displeases me a lot to see cries for making everything harder.
I think that the suggestion of integrating potion and wand crafting to it is nice. And I think that a more economical system could be added to it in order to bring up more player-to-player interaction. Maybe some sorts of items could be available player-only and there could be long-term rentable shops around the server to push such sort of thing.
I think it'd be better without random DCs, no so many secrets for the easiest stuff. Some logics and some lore-gathering should be allowed and pursued. Give a couple more of less deadly-things for an Alchemist to pursue. And let the better, unique and dangerous for the bolder to pursue and keep secret. Make it less hard to keep, protect and understand a garden as well. Make it possible for a non-druid/ranger to know better (even better) how to harvest herbs without killing them.
I think that we have overdone in the amount of obstacles and they are doing little in adding fun and enjoyment.
People that are complaining about a supposed massive usage of alchemical goods and that they should be RPed seem to forget that most DM loot isn't RPed or even described in people's description. The same with several things we got. In my opinion, this is not Alchemy/ Herbalism fault, but a general lack of care about RPing. Sum to this the stressful PvP situations that you just want to walk out alive and you won't be going to give a crap about describing how you activate the Alchemic Button of Doom against your vile rival
Also, the reason to the current high amount of Ether ( I'm assuming cannons) around, is because a certain group of people payed lots of money over a long amount of time to steadily gain those supplies, then those tools were taken, and from my understanding handed out or being used in Pvp, which they aren't that good in unless your undead, or a weak mage. Not because it was mass-produced at 10/day or something. Also, there is only one or two good alchemsts, to my knowledge, that have any sort of know-how with the stronger goods. both of which whom abstain from pvp if they are able, and are careful to whom, and what, they hand out.
Most of the lesser alchemsts die due to the difficulty, ( I mean, who /hasin't/ seen a dead alchemst at a circle at one point or another?) or are put aside due to lack of interest. In my opinion, the system is difficult enough as it is, with the rewards being worth the difficulty, but not extremely so. Most of the more powerful items have time limits /and/ weigh a ton, the ones you /can/ make, and take awhile to learn how to make, all of that time which you are experimenting you are risking PERMANENT DEATH at the hands of your creations.
Also, to the side of "group alchemy", There are already benefits in place for players who take on apprentices and or have assosiates whom they work with. Making it a Requirement to have more then one or two pc's working on something, or more likely to be mass slaughtered in the wilderness/underdark ( there is a difference), that unless you are very careful WILL KILL YOU, more then likely permanently and anyone who can get out fast enough, is simply a... Extremely unsatisfying answer to this.
( this is simply my take on what has been said, if I misunderstood what was said please forgive me. )
Also, There are maybe 4? alchemists I know with any sort of knowledge on the "strong" Alchemy items, two of which are dead / gone from the server, two already mentioned. There are possibly still items that are extremely powerful floating about, but the majority of items out there right now are only situationally useful. Yes, you can make powerful items ( Such as scintillating spheres), but those weigh /alot/ and or are single use, or have charges as stated.
If you have a problem with a certain situation, be it pvp or with a alchemist in general, talk to the dm's and some sort of solution will come across. (NOT saying that you are having a problem with this gloinar, or anything else, just a general statement)
[/rant from a noob alchemist]
Edit: Also, to "Make Dc's Fluctuate" This is a bad idea, period. you get points in alchemy by the "Lore", "spellcraft", and "Herbology/Alchemy" Efuss skills, both of which can only be taken to 10. Now, at level 10 or something, this might allow you to get to 20 points while crafting, or maybe even as much as 30-40. But here's the thing with alchemy. As it stands, while experimenting, you can get dc's on crafting around 40+, spawning creatures that deal 10+ damage a round that kill you, permanently. Dc's Can also be raised or lowered due to something you learn in game, Ic , but the reason you experiment is to find STABLE recipes. If there are no stable recipes, it's like playing Russian Ruellete with your pc's life, to maybe get something as simple as Resin or Alchemical oils, which do absolutely nothing for the character beyond giving more experimentation. So, /unless/ you specificially build your character for Alchemy / herbology, this will only increase the number of Pc deaths, difficulty, and likely make playing a alchemist /very/ unsafe. And, a dc fluctuation of 5 may not sound like alot, but... think of it this way: IF you have a recipe that takes 40 points to work, and you, at your best, have only 40 points, then that meager 5 points means your dead.
There are pcs in the server currently and in the past who do alchemy and only alchemy and contribute in only that manner. Either selling it or handing it out freely. Pcs who just aid one domain of the server because they have managed on previous pcs to work out the system.
There are a variety of ways to fix this. A hard reset of alchemical recipes with dc fluctuation towards recipe spamming. Closer monitoring of recipe transferring from older pcs. Making a post on how alchemists can be more inclusive in roleplay giving them advice on how to better roleplay it. The issue here, is there are ghost pcs who do nothing but make alchemical items for their factions and spam them out, or alchemists who spam out certain items.
The issue is as it always will be:
-Spam
When a method is considered on how to avoid the mass production of certain alchemical objects then the problem is fixed or as fixed as it can be. Another nerf isn't needed we simple need more timers on non-advancement raegents.
Don't put a timer on say a resin or another advancement item if it isn't of high quality. But instead put timers on things such as the certain ethers for two weeks per. And beyond that see more risk in alchemists who just recipe it out alone.
Alchemists are supposed to be that wizard locked in a tower working for hours on end to see something done, I've done that. Literally in Efu:M. Except you can still incorporate near everyone in the server in your alchemy. Get students, hire gardeners, deal with druids to protect your gardeners, hire enforcers to kill the druids so you can protect your gardeners, hire assassins to kill rival alchemists to protect the integrity of your work. Discover other alchemists and deliver ultimatums to subjugate them or join forces.
The list goes on and on of this, alchemists can do a lot to generate roleplay in the server. The issue is, they aren't doing these things. You get a market poster saying "buying herbs" or "selling alchemical goods" and you don't get that monopoly intense roleplay it should. And then people feel cheated when the product which has the roleplay value behind it of a patch of grass dominates them.
The problem lays within the players who abuse the system as a core part of their character without having a character who is Walter White (//%22https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMEq1mGpP5A%22) or Wizard Mickey (//%22https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHTnJNGvQcA%22) or say, anything at all. They are simply a blank animatron of alchemical goods. You cannot just have the blank faced craftsman that can be seen with potion brewers and wand crafters who make it for everyone and anything at the drop of a hat because money. You need to have a story with an alchemist or it simply turns into this argument. Which further nerfs the system and thus damages the people who enjoy the system and make it a core aspect of their character.
TL:DR:
The problem rests in the players not the system.
A few bad apples do ruin the bunch.
So until we can fix people, we can't effectively fix the system.
Quote from: ShadowCharlatan;392178- to make recipes randomised for each individual PC
I have to agree with this, would make the new pcs actually have to experiment or learn another way. Besides part of the fun of alchemy (A guess, never had the patience for it) would be exploring and experimenting, even the powerful creatures you summon by mistake are rather amusing. Its a huge risk or reward system and I support those who like that kind of system, but its not really rewarding if you just take what you know and move it to a new PC.
Besides think of the interesting RP when you summon the Mighty *Spoiler!* or the other *Spoiler*. Along with tales of escaping with your life from them as well.
If your issue is with players and not the system, public discussion forum is not the place. You should bring your concerns to the DMs. I do not believe anyone is behaving in a purposely malicious fashion and am wary of this turning from something productive into something negative.
1st. I've never been interested in the system, so I have NO clue how it works. But, it seems to me that complaining that someone can make an item that is useful in PvP or any other situation ranks right up with with complaining that someone got some useful DM Loot.
Weather you know it or not, people play this game to enjoy themselves. For some that is delving into the custom scripts of efu. It's a lot of time and energy, research, trial and error and danger. These players spend hours trying to figure these things out. They EARN what they learn.
Getting DM loot is a crap shoot. Sometimes it's for something you worked days / weeks on. Other times you happen to luck into a DM event, or the DM decided to spice the quest you were on.
Looking at these two, a Player who's spent hours learning a system, testing, trying, and dieing (often) or the Player that answered a DM sending to kill something or find something, which do you think "earned" their 'loot'?
Now you could say, well the DM loot you can't give to others. We'll actually you can but most people wouldn't. Generally DM loot is armor, a weapon, or something along those lines. With the Alchemist the Loot is the knowledge, the ability to create something, something they can decided what to do with.
Don't begrudge players for having fun, don't begrudge someone for taking the time to learn something. Don't hold their efu "loot" against them when you celebrate the player that answered the DM call and 'earned' DM Loot.
We surely take worries on these seriously, and we consider much of the same aspects as any, and we also consider risk / reward / effort situation also.
That does not mean that powerful item always needs to be super effective people killer. Such can surely be made, and maybe even should be with changes, but there will be drawbacks, as people have pointed out (And mind you, they are very real risks), and maybe we need to adjust different variables regarding them despite the risks so they cannot be repeated in great succession too often to make it less meaningful.
I believe we've gotten past the point of the talks and it's turning into a war of opinions more than anything else. Lets face it. Everyone will like different things and will have different point of views. There's no right or wrong here. We'll be surely making checks and adjusting things as we go, as we always, but we evaluate it from the numbers we see, how people feel, and how we feel.
I'm closing this down now as I truly think this is not getting much more constructive. It will be a war of opinions, and that, will go on forever.