I know this is a problem that is rehashed constantly (Mostly by me after some irksome and irritating death) but instead of my usual crankfest I thought I'd try and take a new productive approach to it. I understand that EFU is designed as an incremental, setting oriented pursuit. However I begin to have trouble with things breaking down as people so commonly emphasize that EFU is a story driven setting in which pursuits are designed away from the MMO style of play.
While I am quite fine with that my situation is one of basic EFU nessecisty: Experience points. I had to actively attempt to wake up early on a day off to try and "Get some quests in" due to my timezone. The result was four hours of questing resulting in one errant move while attempting to save a PC's life which lead to me losing seven thousand experience points.
It's easy to say "Well, that's EFU". But time and again I keep finding myself with this fundamental dilemma.: The harsh death penalty in EFU is supposed to represent a "Brutality" and Totality and palpable fear of death. What I have come to see very often, particularly in the last few months, is quite the opposite.
People who die and respawn and die and respawn and die and respawn, sometimes in the same quest, over and over again, not caring about their experience hit in pursuit of "Concluding the quest". To propose withdrawing from a quest is tantamount to suggesting we collectively beat our own mothers with hot irons, and being more or less shouted down about "Not getting your share of the gear", and similar.
To me this doesn't scream "A harsh fear of death". To me this screams "Oh well I can run Spiders eight more times and get this experience back and a pile of supplies", la-le-lei-lu-lo".
Not everyone has that luxury, interest, or otherwise. While I know attempting to get any changes made to "The EFU Death Penalty" is futile I did have one idea.
I propose an extension over the Hardcore Mode Prelude:
A Hardcore Character.
A character that begins at level six you are given an experience wage that caps at level 8. Supplies would be given and be negligable probably less than the average level 6 EFU player would have. If during this time you meet your demise you are dead save for a raise. If you have the funds and allies and people want to see you returned, by all means.
This means people who wish to play criminals and bandits can hit the ground running. This means people who wish to play politicians and scholars can endure and still have mechanical presence despite their RP aspirations. This means that people who get stuck in poor timezones for questing are able to procure themselves precious XP without reliant upon questing squadrons.
Because the way I see it the current EFU death system doesn't promote a "Fear of death". It promotes MMO style grinding and to me it just feels masochistic.
EFU has proven that many individuals have no problem coming up with cool and dynamic storylines, compelling characters one after the other, and on the whole a sizable undertaking of pursuits.
I don't think it is fundamentally detrimental to EFU's setting if PCs are able to start later down the road in their characters story instead of "You are level 1 commoner. Run wordless fedex quests to level 4. Join the stable of grinds until you are level six or seven, then we can begin conflicting RP".
Questing is fun at times and it has its place. I just think it's fundamentally flawed that we call ourselves a story driven server when the prospect of leading a story is delayed because we don't run the same static enterprises repeatedly until a point where PCs feel "Safe on par with the mechanical standard" to come out of their shell.
At present I am playing a lower sanctuary, criminally focused PC and I have been told on more than one occasion "I hope to do crime but I can't until I have reached level six", seven, eight, or so on.
To me that is a fundamental problem with EFU and may contribute to why so many people are complaining of a lack of "Proactivity".
It's hard to be proactive when EFU demands we throw more time at questing than cultivating interesting storylines.
You know, as soon as I considered the idea of characters starting at level six, mi first thought was "mugging fest". But I have had a few minutes to reconsider, and I believe your suggestion is not completely baseless. There are pros that are worth being pondered about, and I know I'll certainly think about this in the coming days. It may need a certain amount of finesse, but it could work.
Agree with most of this. Most of us should also have school or jobs, a stressful curriculum at times like myself for example.
Maybe a 2 hour time out would give a better psychological effect to our gameplay. Maybe also bring down the XP penalty to approx 1 level each fugue.
I sometimes play fugue as a near near death experience, serious injuries. This is one way to explain this. I've also seen other characters take on the setting and say things like "I refuse to willingly go to the afterlife until such and such happens." From an IC perspective, you are being raised by some godly entity related to Kelemvor?
Maybe add a bit more IC substance, lore, spice, to the the fugue as well. I wouldn't mind a respawn "lottery" of possible debuffs or buffs to make it interesting. I remember COA had a thing where you get respawned with some invulnerability if you roll 100, saying "you were raised by your deity." Something less extreme would probably fit EFU better.
Edit: I think I might be remembering this wrong, this might be the bleeding system there. Still sounds like a cool idea.
I wouldn't mind RP xp being raised and continued, and wilderness monsters and areas giving comparable XP to quests. I see little reason to this other than players "farming," but is there really something so odd as a barbarian or something tracking the wilderness areas and fighting every single monster he sees? Hard to understand why fighting a tough monster outside a quest area isn't the same experience gained.
How clever clever of you to post this in the General Discussion instead of the Suggestions forums! Debate! Debate! Debate!
But in all seriousness, I have to agree. I am a relatively new player, but I can say a few things with complete certainty:
~I have spent at least twice as much time questing as I have cultivating interesting RP and plots (which you can do with/during quests! But I think most of us will agree it's almost always MORE interesting/fun/awesome when it has nothing to do with a quest.)
~My life on EfU revolves around the moments I can be involved with a cool player plot. Doesn't have to be mine. It's just plain FUN. I haven't experienced anything like it in any other game, on any other platform/medium, ever. This is why I keep coming back to EfU despite the mindless frustration of a death.
~I am totally cool with the idea of Hardcore Characters. My mind is exploding with character concepts. I will probably never have the time to play them all, especially if so much of that time is eaten up by questing the hell out of each one. When my PC dies, it is not the death that bothers me - it is the loss of mechanical progress. Should death be permanent bar Raise regardless of the cause, I can determine in 5-10 minutes whether or not to just abandon that PC. That is VERY PRODUCTIVE. For me, dying with the option to drop 1/3rd my XP and respawn is just a great big temptation and pressure to 'push through' and go back to more mindless grinding of quests because I know that my friends and the staff on EfU prefer that I try to make my PC's long-lived. Of course I have ambitions with them. None of you guys know what those ambitions are because I am too busy trying to level up so I can feel ready to push plots.
~granny deserves to experience the feeling of having a level 8 PC at some point. :)
~Staff, DON'T GET ME WRONG, QUESTING IS NOT A BAD THING! I Love the quest system in EfU. They're atmospheric and very very impressive.
But here's the thing: Most folks quest for the XP. That's it.
Now, this is what I would WANT: "Most folks quest for the loot (As most adventurers should!) OR because it is thematic for their concept of slaying this or that, OR because they are intrepid explorers eminently interested in seeing new sights and braving the dangers.
And you know what? I bet there's a pretty good chance people will be more willing to abandon a quest that is crushing them if the quest was initially motivated by more IC-ish reasons.
That's my ten cents. :) I was TRYING to write something short!
RWG for forum Directorate!
This had me thinking about how much time I spend on EFU and how much of that time is actually what I'm seeking to accomplish when playing EFU, including how much fun I have. Well, that just made me completely agree with RwG. I would just add to the suggestion that the said "Hardcore Character" would be app only or another mechanism (that I can't think right now) to avoid the possibility of "Log in and grief".
I've appreciated the feedback i've got from people here and on IRC.
Two things I'd like to add:
[indent]Sure, Myconids are cool and I love that people think it'd be perfect for a PC like me but on the whole myconids to me feel like they'd have a hard time interacting at large with a majority of the server. I love the social aspect of that so much, but if people want to go Myconid by all means run wild. I guarantee you'd have a unique experience that could halt some of these concerns for you. Their unique system coupled with Myconid lairs could help you survive in the harsh EFU world. I'd love to try one some day but I'm just not sure it'd be a good fit.
Secondly: It's not that I "Hate the low level grind" which people are always quick to throw out. I love it. Some of my favorite quests are the low level ones. You've got great stuff like the Lower Sanctuary quests which are all under level 6 and have had many new ones added, there's also the fun pursuit of the higher end quests (I've never done the Formian quest but I have heard it's brutal and awesome), or stuff like the Svirfneblind Stairs. I mean I"ve clearly been playing EFU for a long time with a lot of you folks so I mean it's not like I want to just be level 3 and miserable forever or sit on a bench all day in a social RP world.[/indent]
And yeah, Charnelist. I want the debates because people in Suggestions tend to just "Yes good" or "No bad". This kinda thing needs discussion and lots of people bouncing ideas :D
The only other option if DMs don't want to implement any of this I can remotely think of is if the possibility to "Two Man' quests expanded.
To my knowledge most quests of the level 6/7/8+ quest range require three people.. Compared to the "larger group quests" the XP from these is pretty negligible. It's kind of a kick in the pants to find a PC to potentially quest with just to be told "Oh sorry man, too high level for that good luck though. Or we can try to find a third".
I personally feel you can have just as awesome RP and experience on a two man quest as much as an eight man one so much as you put in the RP and effort to actually make the story interesting.
Though if more 2 man quests exist than I know then that's great! Though I can think of maybe a handful, some with special requirements, and most don't give out as much in terms of XP/reward as the bigger man quests.
Again though my largest issue isn't the earning of XP. It's how severe the death cost is.
This really is a dead horse. Death in EFU is painful, and I am truly sympathetic to bad deaths, but it's a necessarily harsh medicine. The simple and absolute truth is that the sense of achievement from earning a high level loses all meaning with a reduced death penalty or with automatically starting at a high level.
EFU low level content is fun and rewarding. There are countless ways to earn XP and I don't think anyone can argue that getting to level 5 is particularly difficult. A level 5 character truly does have the possibility to do anything in EFU (conduct banditry, survive PvP, join a faction, be a Merchant, go on any quest on the server, go to any area of the server, etc.).
It is absolutely true that it is hard to balance the server for players of very wide-ranging abilities and play-times. We have players who are able to get to very high levels/high quantities of supplies very easily, and we have players who can't. Nuanced and appropriate ideas to lower that OOC skill/experience gap are definitely welcome (I think promoting inclusiveness certainly would help with this, unfortunately there is at times a problem with veteran players leveraging their OOC relationships to quest it up with other veterans while new players struggle in the wasteland of finding reliable partners).
But in general making it even easier to get to level 8 or whatever arbitrary level players decide it is where they have to be before they can do anything interesting (booo) would not help. Likewise a "hardcore" option would only be of benefit to players who don't die and lead to frustration when more marginal players die to something frustrating and lose a promising character to something lame.
High-level, rewarding quests should always require 3 players in EFU. Exploration areas and smaller quests can be duo'ed. Believe me that changing this general guiding principle would be a terrible idea and just lead even more to experienced veteran players with reliable OOC buddies being able to swiftly crush their way up to mega supplies and XP.
Having random monsters give out big XP also would be a very poor idea for EFU, I'm afraid.
Sorry to be a naysayer, and I'm sorry for frustration, but the speed bumps that we've relied upon for 8 years are pretty necessary for the long-term success and viability of EFU.
Try to enjoy the long and slow ride to high levels. If you experience a frustrating death, log off and you'll probably feel better about it later.
Quote~granny deserves to experience the feeling of having a level 8 PC at some point.
Somewhere over the rainbow
Way up high
And the dreams that you dream of
Once in a lullaby
Anyway! I had typed this awesome post but my Internet decided to troll me and it is gone.
To sum up all the lines I had typed, my two cents are that the answer might not be in the death system, but in the implementation of more systems based on the mindset of myconids and lairs. They're awesome and they help a lot to forget about the frustration of death (not fear... death here is frustration, not terrifying) and focus on other things.
Giving free levels won't help, because if you are like me, you'll die and end up in a level bellow than when you started.
It really is absolutely 100% true what Howland says about more experienced players sometimes (often) sticking together. Not even intentionally. They could not even know who eachother are ooc'ly and tend to gravitate because there is a level of mechanical proficiency with the servers dangers and you want to do dangerous things with other people who can handle those dangers.
That's all the more reason to actively try and seek out people who are less experienced though :) I'm one of those folks who often swim in consumable objects or are completely bone dry (not that being loaded ever stops me from dying to silly stuff or things out of my control on a regular basis...) so if you're in one of those situations don't be afraid to splurge a little! Those items aren't doing any good if they aren't used, so use them to help people who are not as experienced as you. Help them avoid deaths, shower them with loot, show the server, and generally make them think you are truly 'the shit' and someone to emulate!
Yea it might not help you personally when you inevitably die as we are all destined to do but the harsh death system is like the biggest turnoff for some new players. Help them out and let them more gradually get used to it, train them, and then in no time you'll have another vet out there to soften YOUR death experiences! Of course not every character ICly might be so nice and be willing to adopt a minion.
I'd prefer there be some system beyond this that helps players recover rather than simply give. Maybe such thungs like
- A system that allows faster gains up to your previous XP level after a death
- A system that provides XP ticks (like the rp xp ticks prior) up to some amount near your old xp, thus removing the inevitable "need" to restore your mechanical losses rather than focus on the story. Slower indeed, but maybe adds some flavor to roleplaying the loss suffered
- Maybe another sort of system that allows for some manner of "buffer" against loss for being an active player. A hidden pool of xp that can be seen and drawn from upon death (though never granting xp beyond your legitimate maximum. This could be given in scripted ticks over time and maybe even as a reward by DMs.
I like VPs idea of faster regaining lost xp. I am not annoyed by being level 4-5-6, I am annoyed by the sudden loss in strength/survivability/spells whatever. Being low level is no problem, but going back from what you once had is. If one would regain up to that point faster that'd decrease any frustration a great deal, for me at least.
The only thing I have to add is that I would wish that exploration XP for significantly difficult (in the kind of spawns around it) or hard to find areas granted a small amount of permanent XP.
Other than that, it's important to maintain the server difficulty.
I like the hardcore idea with no respawns in theory....but I think it would create awkward situations where DMs feel the need to pull punches knowing you can't respawn.
Maybe the quests with max level 7 need their XP tweaking up a bit if some people find it too slow. But I think the main thing that makes leveling slow is if you do only the lowest quests you can. Doing some of the harder stuff "above" your level (which are still pretty doable) makes leveling not too slow.
The idea of recovering a percentage of the XP lost after death over time is not something I am against myself. Other than that death penalty is here to stay and having a scripted enforced hardcore character leads to all sorts of problems. We are not Diablo. We're here for the story.
If you are bored of "the grind" explore the range of different other quests available. Of which there are 47+.
Perhaps a certain mode can be activated after a death where you regain the xp you lost at a lower ECL than normal, but upon recovering it you gain a higher ECL malus for a set period of time.
A system that slowly returns lost xp up to the point you had before death actually is very rply sensible. Even though you suffered a harrowing near death experience and are bound to be weaker.. you dont forget what you knew, yeah it may be harder, or you are recovering but you still could do what you did at one point and you know how.. so really getting back to the point you were before should be easier as opposed to how it was getting there the first time.
I too think that a percentage XP recovery tick after death would be a great psychological buffer against the angst of death, as 1) it would decrease character turn over rates, 2) would incentivize storytelling.
Personally, when I die in EFU, I feel like taking a break from questing and focusing on other things. Trouble is, the urge exist to "make up for your loss" and this is not an greatly enjoyable experience.
The beauty of this whole idea is that we can exploit a psychological mechanism. We could give a tiny, incremental gain of xp (say 1% per hour of play) and it would still feel great, despite having a very minimal impact on game balance. The simple fact that you know you'll get it back is sufficient to remove most of the angst associated with the loss.
Sure, the minor XP tick post-death to make up for the loss of some XP has been a regularly discussed and desired feature since EFU:M. Whether it's worth the time to make is up to the poor soul who'd actually have to do it.
I am coming to EFU from years of having played on a Perma-Death server in which the only way to bring a character back from the dead was through others taking IC actions to have your dead character returned to life such as questing for diamonds and finding a high level cleric to cast the required spells....or the DM team could and would provide penalty free tech rezzes if your character died due to bug or other tech error. I am more then comfortable with the harsh EFU death penalty and would have no trouble with the penalty becoming even more severe.
Though since the scripting is there I don't think it would be a cataclysmic shift to the setting to bump the CAB a level or two. If disagreeable though I quite understand that as well.
I understand my complaints were mostly situational. I was attempting to play a fringe PC at a time in which the majority of the hub was DM/Associative Faction of Upper Sanctuary. The best advice I received was to just bite the bullet overcome my dislike of OOC creation of a duo of PCs for a concept from the start of certain concepts. I always prefer to let things foster organically but in a situation where there's few people to do that It's more or less running on a hampster wheel. So not only was it a lack of RP, my XP then took a hit, so it was just a double whammy.
The XP recovery thing has merit but that seems a mammoth thing to overcome in terms of scripting and so on.
I've taken a new angle to try and solve my persistent problems with some more OOC coordination rather than trying to tackle stuff solo from the start. It's dangerous out there and I just have to learn to enjoy the buddy system.
Would the tools to bring a PC back to life by the hands of other PCs be considered scarce or too expensive? Maybe making it easier/ rewarding for other PCs to help on this would be good?
Anything but something to boost the return to previous levels of exp from last death, is unlikely to change.
And I will be looking into it and discussing with team over time during this fall, and we will see if something can be made to happen. Beoynd that, as has been said, system is here to stay and when it comes to means to revive dead, I surely will not want to be made usual or less rare / expensive.
I haven't had the opportunity to Raise Dead someone yet (and I don't know that there are many [any?] other Clerics out there of sufficient level) but from what I've read, it still has a chance of failure based on a few factors such as alignment and "faith". Compounding this is the apparent extreme rarity of the components involved, of which I have seen very, very few, and have not heard of many others possessing over long character careers. It seems a very difficult thing to pull off as a result, while dragging a body to a certain NPC is (as far as I know) flawless and relatively inexpensive. I don't know why anyone would willingly seek out a PC Cleric and navigate the muddy waters of conflicting faiths or alignments to chance a ritual and rare components when there's an NPC that does a better job more easily, outside of instances where a DM might say an NPC rez won't work but a PC one would (which I haven't yet witnessed).