I'm wondering, since i've been playing a pure druids since i began to play in EFU, how do you guys do it? The druid is completly changed from the one i was used to, specially at low levels. I don't get how to make it work.
When unmodified, a druid let's summons do all the damage, while he stays behind casting spells to give his foes a disadvantage, however, in EFU the animal companions, specifically the panther has been nerfed so it becomes almost useless, no longer it has the sneak attack damage wich was the only thing remarcably good about it, instead is capped at 1d6 forever, i can't rely on it to deal damage, the summons, while effective last too little, making them good for a single encounter and then *poof* so i either memorise all summon creatures as posible, or only use one in a key encounter. I think i'm supposed to let my party deal all damage, maybe it's to encourage party play?
The druid's combat skills aren't too good either, being a caster druid i rely on wildshape to be able to stay in front and fight, i was a bit surprised when i tried to turn into a bear the first time and ended up as a deep roath (or whaetever they're called) i like the idea of many shapes, and as far as i've heard from other players the worg is the best from to fight, it's still not too efective, and unless i have barbskin, it has no AC either (well, 14, that meaning nothing) so neither can i be in the frontline for too long, because i'll get killed or will be forced back into human form to cast healing spells and- oops, can't transform untill i rest again!
But my greatest porblem is the spells, i can't get wich spells to use and wich don't, i used to memorise grese, lot's of it, it was very usefull when combined with a panther familiar, but now that it has been nerfed.. also most players don't even stop while i type to propose some kind of strategy, meaning at any time i'm facing an enemy a dwarf will be already fighting a horde, and casting grese will likely be worse for him than the enemies. So i can't use that, summoning snakes does no longer work efectively, they take 1 or 2 hits and die, and never deal damage. I ended up memorising lot's of cure light wounds. Level 2 spells are also a hard choice, i have to decie if i chose to buff up, or summon something usefull, the mountain cats are good summons, but the +3 AC is very helpfull too, specially because i need to make sure my near-useless companion doesn't get killed. Bull's strenght is something i'm looking for when on worg shape, and sometimes it does good to the panther as well. But if i do that there are no nice level 2 melee fighter summons so, what to do? At level 3 i can only use summon creature 3, already most of the level 3 druid spells where lame, but now that call lighting has been made almost unusable i really only have summon creature III as a choice, or have changes been made to healing sting, infestation of maggots, spike growth, etc.?
Just looking for some general advise on how to play, if anyone can help, i'll thank you.
Well, in general the changes are made to support the theme of the server and it's habitat. This is why you have different wild shapes and summons here than in a normal world. They are balanced to not be a huge duration as to not be overpowering, but useful for certain situations. (Although anything but a sorcerer will have a real hard time using the conjuration focus idea with much success)
Druids are not truly meant to be a damage dealing caster class. The spells you mentioned of third level are capable of disabling nearly any enemy in PvP, or perhaps a 'boss' creature in the quests.
I don't often play druids for personal reasons but quest wise and party wise you are mostly there for support or flanking, not to be a fighter with spells. The server is mostly dedicated to roleplay so be sure to focus on that more than the power of your character while killing monsters. Try to join with the current Druids in game and maybe ask these questions in character, ask for advice on using your powers of nature to support the people and groups you travel with.
In the end, be sure you have read over all the changes and rules posted on the website here. They are listed in detail under the changes section of information tab on top there.
I understand druids are mostly support at low levels, but how to support? evey class has someting that only it can offer to the party, either it be superior healing, bard song, find/disable traps, buffs.. What does the druid has that makes it valuable in a party?
Barkskin. It is useless after barkskin.
In that sense, a cleric wipes the floor with the plant domain.
Some tips:
- Stealth. With camoflauge/one with the wild, you can get extremely high stealth.
- Buffs. You have access to many of the best buff spells in the game, most notable Bull's Strength (dramatically improving the damage of any fighter type), and Barkskin (dramatically removing the defensive capabilities of any fighter type). It is true that the majority of quests in EFU tend to be accomplished with fighter-types being buffed up by some kind of caster (although certainly that does and can vary).
- Herbalism. Many druids have a natural affinity towards herbalism. With Herbalism you can produce an essentially unlimited, cost-free supply of compcated medicine bags with which you can use to keep a party 100% healed up in between battles for virtually no gold cost.
Support in general. The server is awash with charged loot. A good support player/character can be the secret to beating many quests. Instead of self-buffing and fighting yourself, perhaps your druid will stand close behind a companion and keep them at top health and condition so he can keep fighting and not worry about healing himself in the middle of a battle.
Animal Empathy. Keep dangerous animals away from your party, or ally with them for tight spots (remember to use appropriately, most druids will not send animals into situations of certain death).
Various Perks. We have scripted various perks specifically for druids that are best discovered IG.
Druid-centered faction. We encourage well roleplayed druids to join this group, that does have nice perks associated with it.
Playing a druid is certainly difficult to do, both mechanically and in terms of roleplay. The second is far more important than the first, but I hope these simple suggestions help alleviate some of the frustration with the first.
In EFU, I always read too much about "overpowered" and "balanced" but nothing about what is the "reference". Is a secret or a unknown point ? The classes and races are diferent as is, this is the most actrative and inteligent feature of NWN, the diversity and the possiblity of harmony, to party complementaty skill and feats. It's Faerun not Nemedia.
I wonder who it was that started the whole trend of druids calling other druids 'druidics' and calling elves 'elven' and dwarves 'dwarven' and halflings 'halven'... OK I made that last up...
I'd also really like to see someone play a charismatic and educated druid. Someone who graduated from some University someplace. Not all druids need be savage, tribalistic, and hateful of the civilized! That's an exaggerated stereotype of EfU druids, but I think we know where I'm coming from!
On the viability of druids in EfU - Drakill, I encourage you to play around with different things and see how it works out. One of the most powerful advantages of a Druid, that I have seen, is in flexibility.
A druid can be a fairly decent tank, a druid can be a buffer and healer, a druid can be an enemy force neutralizer, a druid can be an uber stealthy scout, mental and physical, all in one build (though not necessarily all at the same time). Certainly it won't measure up in any one capacity as well as a character built around that single component... but being able to fill a variety of roles in one character simply isn't something to overlook.
If you really want to get into the whole nature scene, I'd recommend reading Silent Spring by Rachel Carson. Although she touches upon more modern-day problems, the mindset she has in that book can be applied well to EFUA, and make for that "intelligent" druid that Jayde Moon was describing.
Responding to Jayde Moon, I would like to say WE NEED MORE SIGGY! Sigfried Bookbadger is my favourite druid ever on account of how he wants to bridge between the civilised and the wild, and how very different his is to the average druid.
Yes to that, yes to more "village wise woman" type druids, to PCs who decide to start as another class, meet druids IG and multiclass into Druid after taking an oath.
Quote from: Egon the Monkey;120348Sigfried Bookbadger is my favourite druid ever on account of how he wants to bridge between the civilised and the wild, and how very different his is to the average druid.
My PC preaches this constantly. There are a couple others who are working on this as well that I know of.
Totally agree on breaking out of the druid stereotype. Not sure where people get the idea that druids all have to be savage, dirty, and covered in tattoos. If you want to look at the historical writings we have on druids (mostly written by Romans, as the druids transmitted information through an oral tradition, not written) what you find is a class of people who were the judges, scholars, and advisers to kings; not to mention the healers and spiritual advisers. They filled many roles but first and foremost they were better educated than most, with training lasting around 19 years. Part of that training was bardic, as the druids had to be able to recite the lineage of kings and recount from memory the history of the lands in which they lived. Druids were bards first.
But we're talking DnD here so all that may be moot, or not, depending on how you want to play it I suppose.
Back on the original topic
I don't think a druid is a good up-front person in DnD, particularly in EfU. I think where they shine is working as a team with others of similar goals, and is probably one of the reasons why the DMs set up a faction for druids and the guardians of druids.
Howland touched upon the druid buffs - barkskin and strength are buffs every fighter will cry for if they know you have it. So is elemental resistance.
Probably the biggest perk of being a druid is that you get a free pass to being someone important that people will listen to. Even a druid who is a total idiot "speaks for the land" and "knows better than everybody else."
Every efu druid does have stealth loot, uses the stealth spells, and probably has invested feats into stealth as well. It is the only way you can survive in the wilderness, where spawns are routinely much more powerful than unbuffed pcs.
QuoteEven a druid who is a total idiot "speaks for the land" and "knows better than everybody else."
I think a bit of RP abuse of this by some has actually caused a situation where druids DON'T get a free pass to being 'someone important that people will listen to'. In fact, I'm having a somewhat difficult time getting reasonable PCs to give druids the time of day.
Thanks, i think all i have left is, as Jayde said, experiment. I really wasn't looking for RP advise, i already have my RP all set up, but thanks anyway.
You can stray from the path a bit too..EFU summons last longer if mixed with SF/GSF conjuration. Still not perfect, but better. Extend Spell is a good feat for any caster, but has a higher spell cost attached to it. Wands and potions are very hot commodities in EFU...brew barkskin potions and watch the good times roll. Wands can allow you to wand those useful spells and allow you to use your precious spell slots to better effect.
Want to get really odd? My last druid had expertise...expertise and improved expertise can allow you to survive tough encounters. I'd attack with expertise and allow my companion to do the damage. Not 100% solution, but it can and does work
My current druid has improved expertise. I've been a frontliner since level 5, wildshape cat does that. :D
I have to say that I tend to play Eamon as a druid who was taught and educated in the ways of the wild, as well as taught to respect the advance of civilization as there is no true way to stop it; save for bloodshed and conflict.
He was born and raised in the druid city of Cedarsproke. And from an early age, he was taught to blend in the more traditional oaths of the druids, and the ways of the civilized world with the values and morality of Nobanion and Wemic teachings. And although Eamon is by far, not a genius, I try to play him with a more practical view of things. An almost sagacious view of things. He is slow to take action if he does not take time and study what his choices would do to him and others in the near future.
Anyway! I agree that it is a little bit more difficult to play a druid here on EFU:A now that most of their abilities have been changed from the NWN default. But I have to say that the changes aren't too dramatic, and that it will simply take a bit of adaptation to overcome the new challenges that the druids have here on EFU:A. And don't forget that we get a whole slew of new goodies and powers to use on the server. :)
Quote from: Sedarine;120402You can stray from the path a bit too..EFU summons last longer if mixed with SF/GSF conjuration. Still not perfect, but better. Extend Spell is a good feat for any caster, but has a higher spell cost attached to it. Wands and potions are very hot commodities in EFU...brew barkskin potions and watch the good times roll. Wands can allow you to wand those useful spells and allow you to use your precious spell slots to better effect.
Want to get really odd? My last druid had expertise...expertise and improved expertise can allow you to survive tough encounters. I'd attack with expertise and allow my companion to do the damage. Not 100% solution, but it can and does work
Yes i did thought about wands, specially because that way i wounln't have to memorize call lighing and still use it when it rained, also i can use the wand to buff alies, while i use the rest of the slots for other spells.
However, i would like to know if wands/scrolls/potions have been modified in EFUC:A, because if they remain as implemented by bioware, seeing the high XP and GP costs for a fixed, never too good spell and considering how hard i is to get XP and GP in EFU:A i won't take them.
Do wantds/scrolls/potions remain the same as implemented by bioware?Another, random, but still related question.. has gresse been changed in any way in EFU:A?
You can also encourage people to tend to animals and plants, and grow in wisdom, and.. oh, yes, that's boring.
What the others said then.
http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/index.php?pageid=mechanics
Wands, potions and scrolls have had their costs adjusted for EFU:A.
Quote from: Skrillix;120496http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/index.php?pageid=mechanics
Wands, potions and scrolls have had their costs adjusted for EFU:A.
I can't seem to find them sorry.
But i don't really care about costs.. if i craft a spell scroll/wand will the spell be cast at the usualy bioware-implemented level? or will the level be fixed to mine?
Quote from: Letsplayforfun;120490You can also encourage people to tend to animals and plants, and grow in wisdom, and.. oh, yes, that's boring.
What the others said then.
Depends on your kind of druid, Adeline is in no way intrested in teaching people anything, she also isn't your number one activist: she is happy with respecting nature and insulting people. Although she does hate undead.
the wands are made at Toolset values.
Generally this means your wands and potions cast the spell at the minimum level to cast it.
In a few cases it can be higher.
IMO that's terrible. However i truly never used the standard bioware crafting, only when modified. Is there anythign worthwhile be cast into a wand considering the level will always be the lowest? (for druids of cource)
As far as I'm aware it is essentially impossible (at least extremely complicated) to assign a caster level to an item that is different from those already implemented by Bioware.
Nor would it be desired, even if it was. Potion/wand crafting is very powerful on this server, and making the caster level equal to that of an actual PC would be significantly imbalancing.
It is posible, it was implemented in another PW i play in.
Personally, i believe druids to be the hardest class to play, however if you play them right, one of the most rewarding.
I have played a couple of what i like to think were pretty successful druid pcs on EFU:A and this is mostly down to thinking about -how- your druid would respond to situations, and even how your druid would deal with threats.
As howland said, Druid can get damn good stealth through their spells. But also druids and rangers get one ability that totally rocks. Animal empathy.
AE'ing a beast, then buffing it with bull strength, barkskin, stoneskin and if you get to 9 -AWAKEN- can turn even the most docile of creatures into a monster. Take that a cave bear has an AE check of like 26, which is easy to pass, then buff that thign to high heavens, the results are, well, phenominal.
Also, i played a druid who could easily frontline, while they arent the best ab class or the highest hp, they are still tough, and have acess to really nifty spells to increase their toughness, bark, stone etc. Also not forgetting that druids get a bonus to thier AB in the wilds which is where most of the fighting is done anyway.
I'm not saying druids are the best, or even hugely strong. But hells you play one effectively and think about what you want from it, and they can be -damn- scary.
Yup.
Talon: Not want fight you.
Goon: Aw c'mon give me a spar
Talon: [Stoneskin, Entangle, Infestation of maggots, waits]
Talon: [Pokes goon and he falls over]
That was pretty much how one of his fights went :D
I'm not gonna lie to you Drakill, druids are tough.
Good points to remember: Like Howland said, druids can have good stealth. Items are all over to help with this. Camouflage and One with the land are also a key here. Also test out the "useless" rat form and see what it does for your stealth...you'll find it's a very useful form.
Wands..yep, that caster level thing stinks, but on spells like protection from elements it doesn't matter too much. EFU is conflict based, and he who is best ready in terms of consumables wins a great majority of the time. Cash is king, and the key to the consumables arms race too. Even if you shun PvP, there are many things that are made so much more survivable just by having the tools to deal with the conflict.
Worthy of note is you ability to heal yourself, create items to heal yourself and craft medicinal items. It may seem expensive, but think of the cost to buy the 25 cure serious wounds potions that wand replaced!
It may help to think of crafting in terms of bang for your literal buck and relative to EfUs soft level cap, not "My lvl 9 caster should be making wands at 9th level". It would be rather imbalanced.
But if you instead think of a potion of Bulls Strength which sells for X at a merchant, then think of a potion of Bulls Strength which costs y to make, then think of a wand of Bulls Strength which costs z to make.
It may not last the 9 hours that the spell cast as a 9th level Druid might last, per charge, but to get the same duration out of your wand is only little more than 100 gp (3 charges). What's x above?
Your barkskin charges may only give +3 AC for the low caster level, but what the hell, it's +3 AC you can throw on in a jam, or on 8 people at the same time... it may not be the 5 AC that the 9th lvl druid gets when cast directly, but for the literal price it's nice.
Elemental protections aren't even affected by level afaik.
How long do you need one with the land and camouflage charges to last if your using your wand? Long enough to boost your AE to emp that sabre tiger? Long enough to quickly travel from point A to point B in rat form?
Do you really need spike growth charges to last more than than 5 'hours'? They do the same amount of damage regardless of level cast, and the effect to slow your opponent isn't affected by level.
Call lightning STILL does 5d10 dmg at minimum caster level.
Poison is unaffected by caster level.
A 9th level druid is out 2 points of dmg on Quillfire, OH NOEZ!
Minimum duration on Freedom of movement is 7 minutes (turns). Cast at 8th and 9th you are only losing 1 and 2 min respectively. Hardly a dealbreaker. That's if you save the extreme bucks to make a wand of it.
Stoneskin, in my experience, has had it's EfU duration nerfed to a point where the actual duration is irrelevant. It gets used up before it expires. The loss of 10/20 points of DR is a shame, but again, hardly a dealbreaker.
If you are in a situation where you NEED Hold Monster charges, the loss of two rounds (for a 9th level caster) to the duration shouldn't hurt you too badly, just spam the damn thing... again, being able to cast it up to 25x at caster lvl 7 when you can only cast it up to three times at caster lvl 9 is not something to cry about.
On some of the lower level direct damage spells, the loses can be notable, but it's simply made up for in spammability and versatility (you can literally, with enough money, have wands to be able to 'cast' every spell in your spellbook, multiple times, at the same speed you would actually cast them).
Of the spells in which duration is affected, you're simply not losing the amount of duration you might otherwise be worried about losing because of EfUs soft level cap. A 20 th lvl mage loses 15 rounds on a minimal level hold wand, versus casting it. The most you are going to lose in EfU is 7 rounds. Yeah, only 2 or 3 rounds of hold sucks compared to 9 rounds... but you can spam the wand if you need, and not use up spellslots for your hold person spells. 2-3 rounds + an expeditious retreat potion is plenty of time to escape. Or plenty of time to get a couple of castings off, unmolested, of other strong spells. A touch attack spell that doesn't have to worry about your targets AC at all.
So consider all of this.
One last thing to consider... even if you STILL think Wands and Potins suck and aren't worth it... remember that the rest of us don't think that, and people WILL pay good coin for your potions and wands. A good salesperson could be able to make enough coin to pay for their own potions and wands. And 'free' 25 charges of barkskin at CL 3 or CSW at CL 5 or Ultravision at CL 1 is still a damn good deal.
First Thing:
*Grammar nazi strikes from above with terrible vengeance* Spell your words. Please. If you need to, read a dictionary. Use dictionary.com. Ask a friend. Pleace.
Ahhhhh... now that that's done.
Druids are hard to play, just like any other caster in this server. EfU:A is very delicately balanced. I've played a good dozen pure fighters, and only slightly less pure casters. The fighters are, of course, much better at lower levels. Casters get 'very' cool at later levels, but you always run the risk of getting AoE'd and dying like a rabid, three-legged dog.
I'm afraid that there really is no set way to play a druid, and especially not here in EfU:A. They have such an incredible mix of buffs, attack spells and de-buffs, not to mention wildshape, that you cannot make a perfect druid.
What you have to do is make a character with an interesting, role-playable background and let the build/strategy come second. Make your character fun and you will find people who either love or fear you and are willing to help keep you alive. Do that and you can hit level seven or so with a few weeks of solid play. Now, I don't care what you say, a level seven druid kicks serious can.
Summary for those who don't like my long-winded posts:
Role-play comes first. If you master that, power will come. Even if it doesn't, you'll have more fun.
Oh, and about the idiot dwarf who always runs ahead? Don't go on a quest with him!
Quote from: dragonfire9000;120662*Grammar nazi strikes from above with terrible vengeance* Spell your words. Please. If you need to, read a dictionary. Use dictionary.com. Ask a friend. Pleace.
Lol, pleace.
EPIC FAIL: Pleace.
I know i do type fastly and carelessly. Mind you, my grammar is better in english than in my home language, don't complain :P
Anyway. I've been trying and experimenting a lot. The resting restrictions usually get the best out of me, and it NEVER rains when i can find a party to go to an outdor area, so i've given up on that spell. Also i've scrapped gresse. It's horrible do to the not-knocking thing (either intended or not, it was a waste to take conjuration as a focus.. at least untill i get other good conjurations, wich considering the level players usually reach will be never.) and i've found sleep better. although still not too good. Still, it's someting. In the end i usually end up memorising heal light wounds.
Wildshape is probably the best thing the druid has at my level. Fully buffed the worg can be a mediocre damage dealer, so i can actually do something to help the tanks. At times other shapes can also come very usefull, the fire bettle shape is godly against zombies and mummies. something good, because druids hate undead and i can't deny helping clearing the temple of jergal any time i'm asked to aid. In fact i think i've been doing the quest dialy.. never gets old though. Buffing allies also makes a diference, the brood keepers seem to suck, either that or my bad luck always gives them low rolls, either way, with extend spell i can use the level 3 slots to buff allies, so it doesn't matter much.
As for wands.. i've reconsidered. Anywhere else, the duration of buffs was so terrible it wasn't even worth it unless it was cast at caster level. When i wrote that though i didn't remember hours in EFU:A take 27 minutes, so the duration is 13 times more. Larger than life as it is, 3 hours is a lot. As for spells, call lighting at 1d10 is powerfull enough so even at level 5 it deals almost as much damage as a level 10 regular call lighitng. I still will never use it because it never rains when i go to an outdoor quest, but it would be nice to have it there. hell, 20 damage to all enemies is good enough if i get the chance to use it, and even if they make the save i'll do that much damage. Also, when i get cure critical wounds (never? lol i can dream) the wands will be well worth it.
So i'm usually staying behind most of the quests buffing and healing (when i rememeber to), killing the left-overs of the enemies left by the rushin dwarves, then turn into a wolf to aid in the fron when the extra damage is neded, then trun back into human and summon things at the boss fight. At least now i feel i'm doing something, that is an improvement.
Please keep the suggestion and/or flaming comming, they will all be apreciated, because i'm not giving up on durids. I don't care if i have to get to epic levels to do so!!
EDIT: Oh, and IC, Adeline hates dwarves, so she won't travel with them most times, problem solved.
Hours for spell durations are 5 minutes long, not 27. 27 minutes is just for time-changes (to have a more natural day/night cycle). I just wanted to correct that misunderstanding (spending some time glancing over our mechanics changes page may be helpful).
Quote from: Howland;121134Hours for spell durations are 5 minutes long, not 27. 27 minutes is just for time-changes (to have a more natural day/night cycle). I just wanted to correct that misunderstanding (spending some time glancing over our mechanics changes page may be helpful).
Ah..
Well from experience alone i can say they still last a lot. (2.5 more times? seems more to me but...)
I guess while you have everyone's attention I'd like to add the oddity of your animal companion attacking you. I thought you were full of it and didn't believe it until I saw it - which was pretty weird. I saw a panther that Adeline(Drakill's druid) had summoned(that was not confused) do a sneak attack to her, taking about half her health. It was somewhat funny but at the same time I was the cleric so it was a waste of healing to keep her at good health from a rogue panther
Quote from: scribjellydonut;121378I guess while you have everyone's attention I'd like to add the oddity of your animal companion attacking you. I thought you were full of it and didn't believe it until I saw it - which was pretty weird. I saw a panther that Adeline(Drakill's druid) had summoned(that was not confused) do a sneak attack to her, taking about half her health. It was somewhat funny but at the same time I was the cleric so it was a waste of healing to keep her at good health from a rogue panther
Report this as a bug immediately.
Quote from: scribjellydonut;121378I guess while you have everyone's attention I'd like to add the oddity of your animal companion attacking you. I thought you were full of it and didn't believe it until I saw it - which was pretty weird. I saw a panther that Adeline(Drakill's druid) had summoned(that was not confused) do a sneak attack to her, taking about half her health. It was somewhat funny but at the same time I was the cleric so it was a waste of healing to keep her at good health from a rogue panther
That and that i looove to frontline with my 17 AC :mrgreen:
Quote from: Thomas_Not_very_wise;121382Report this as a bug immediately.
I belive it is not a bug, happened when the panther entered gresse (yes i used gresse, and it did help, i'm amazed) but never when i didn't cast it, the thing is, due to PvP, when my panther is in any way damged/debuffed by any spell i cast it targets me as hostile. I belive it happened in the OC as well.
I could be wrong though, i'll test out once i have control of the PC with video card.
Panthers have reacted badly to stepping into your AoE's since NwN came out.
The only things to do is not use AoE's when the panther is out or, safest of all, choose a less buggy companion.
Well done sir! You're clearly getting the hang of the druid, something I have never been able to do myself. I'm impressed that you've had the stick-to-itiveness to figure it out. Druids are hard to play, and easily ganked if the circumstances are bad.
I salute you!