Alright boys and girls, Something has been bugging me about EFU for a bit of time and I thought it'd be best to bring it up.
FR is a place where the gods are real, the gods are powerful, and the gods are numerous.
Simply because you choose a patron deity does not mean you have to kick sand in the eye of every deity who is brought up or you come across, and talk smack to the deities you dislike. (IF you are a tormite, it makes sense to hate Bane. If you're a Sharran, its only reasonable you hate Selune/Lathander. But not all gods have blood-fueds with each other) Often that is a very, very, very poor idea. In a world where Gods are real, cursing one's name usually has some poor consequence.
It is with this in mind though, that inspired this rant.
I've seen Paladins and Priests of goodly deities curse the names of the evil gods. I've seen Evil Priests and other shady folk curse the names of the Goodly gods.
Faerun as a whole is a very diverse land with Gods of supreme and ever-present power. The Time of Troubles had gods warring on human soil, and that's a pretty substantial thing when you think about it.
Offering a Prayer is not selling your soul in a contract. Offering a Prayer -is- usually a fun RP way to both get blessings and fend off evils.
Fun fact: If a Paladin was climbing an ice-covered mountain in pursuit of a Villain, and he was not a Paladin of Kossuth, He would probably utter a Pray of mercy from Auril the god of Frost, so that he could survive the trek. He may even seek out an Aurilite Priest ahead of time, and ask for permission and blessing before trecking up said mountain.
Fun fact: If an Evil Soldier had to root out a traitor in his mist, Guidance would be sought from a Torm, the god of punishing traitors.
EFU is a polytheistic setting, but the "Patron" idea coupled with how faith works in real life, makes it difficult I imagine.
Just know that offering a prayer to a god isn't like cheating on a girlfriend. A Banite Farmer still needs crops to grow, so he would offer prayer and perhaps even seek a Chauntean for assistance if there is trouble on his farm.
Its the little things like that, that can add to the RP of EFU, as well as enhance your character.
Strange alliances like that are always fun. When people can put down the "My god is better than yours" and the "I spit on your god, even though he will probably kill me for it", and embrace the awesome that is a Polytheistic setting, things can be fun and lead to alot of Conflict.
Conflict = Fun
Fun = Why we play.
Love it.
Hear hear!
While I agree with the crux of your argument. It has been made clear to me in my last attempt to talk about religions here, that your first fun fact, at least, does not apply to efu. (Maybe the Realms, but not here)
Agree with most of that RWG... certaiinly for all non-cleric/paladins but..
QuoteFun fact: If a Paladin was climbing an ice-covered mountain in pursuit of a Villain, and he was not a Paladin of Kossuth, He would probably utter a Pray of mercy from Auril the god of Frost
[/B]
Not sure a Paladin would, he would pray harder to his patron, to overcome the hardship. That said, apart from a few notable exceptions very few people, even clerics would avoid saying openly aggresive things directly about other gods/goddess particularly if they were in their domain. For example that paladin on the snowy mountain may not ask for Auril's help but wouldn't (if he had more than 8 wisdom) be bitching about Auril for all to hear.
Its all about degrees. Whilst a lowly cleric or lay follower may pray to another god, on the side, the higher you climbed in the church (and levels in NWN) the less you would/should go to other gods for help.
So Fzoul Chembyrl would NEVER ask for Auril's help on that mountainside, as he is the highest ranking and most faithful Baneite on Faerun, but a fellow lay Baneite or some lowly junior preist may well be tempted to ask for such help.
Actually, I disagree here.
I recall a story about a high priest of Bane that also prayed to Ilmateer. Sadly, I don't recall the details!
The priestess of Bane prayed to Ilmater by using her breasts to put out a candle fire because she had a conscious crisis...
well, yea....sick.
Hmmm...
QuoteI recall a story about a high priest of Bane that also prayed to Ilmateer. Sadly, I don't recall the details!
I bet it wasn't Fzoul doing this... if it was some lesser cleric then that still fits with what i described.
My point was what RWG described is fine, but the higher in the faith you achieve/reach the less likely and allowed this would be.
Can we have a DM's opinion on this to assist the cleric's/paladins out there?
It was a hypothetical scenario proposed by Mr Greenwood himself in response to a query submitted through Candlekeep by Meldread. I remember having a good laugh at imagining how he thought up that specific scenario.
http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/old_forums/viewtopic.php?t=25263&highlight=breasts+ilmater
I've come to accept that pulling teeth is easier and more fun than trying to wrangle even a short, one sentence prayer from a pc. Give me npcs to convert, please.
Yes, the Gods are real and powerful, but how you relate to them is still player preference.
I mean, after all... there's STILL FAITHLESS.
Chew on that one. The Gods literally walked the earth, but some people decry them.
My personal theory on faithless is less Atheistic and more a refusal to honor beings who, while powerful, are really just a bunch of squabbling children. Jealous, petty, vengeful, with their own agendas.
Add to that the thought that you know there are so many people in the world, a God can't possibly care so much as to give you individual attention when you blaspheme their name (this is a possible perspective that some individuals in the setting might have, not some reality of the server or Faerun I'm trying to dictate). You just kind of get grouped into the general 'people that must be converted and/or destroyed. There may be bigger fish to fry.
So while I'm in whole hearted agreement that the world in general knows of the Gods and honors them all in their own way out of love, respect, or fear; individuals, especially PCs who are supposed to be extraordinary individuals, do not necessarily have to fall into that mode of thinking.
IMO, a Paladin would NEVER offer lip service to Umberlee or Auril. But a Priest of Torm hopping on a ship may make a simple statement of "Umberlee turn thy eyes from this ship" and flip a coin into the sea at the harbor before the ship sets sail.
More analogous (in my mind) of superstitious ritual as opposed to a bona fide prayer to the Deity in question.
Quote from: "Gurb"A random inhabitant of Faerun wakes up in the morning, and praises his patron god Tyr. Then he asks Tymora for luck in the new day, Beshaba to keep the bad luck away. He prepares breakfast and thanks Chauntea for her bounty and before he leaves home he praises Lathander and Sune for the beauty of the new day.
He then goes to work in a shop in a nearby city. He asks Shaundakul for a safe trip, and a host of nature deities as the road goes through a forest. He arrives to town, where he visits the temple of Tyr for the daily prayers and to deposit a tithe, then goes to work. He prays to Waukeen for a good business day, and Helm to keep the thieves away.
At the end of the day, he leaves the shop and gives some alms to an Ilmateri priest that is asking for help to build a shelter for the poor and then goes to the Tyrran temple again for some more prayer.
He leaves the city and repeats his traveling prayers, adding some quick mention to Shar as the darkness sets in. He goes to bed and prays to Tyr once more, to Kelemvor in case he dies in his sleep, and for the same reason a quick prayer to Talona, just in case.
Here you have a devout follower of Tyr.
As much as i agree with the OP which tries to bring a shade of grey in an otherwise black and white world, i'd also be tempted to say: let people RP how they want.
How I see it, and how I see as RWG meant it ( Pardon if I'm totally wrong ); People play as if there is only one god, theirs. I know, everyone notes and mentions others gods, sure.
If you think the setting from in character aspect, it would be very usual thing to do as RWG said. Every God has its dogma, and it's area of, should I say "expertise". They curse things in name of Bane or something, they praise tymora for luck.
The point is, people curse, thank and name only their own God, and do not remember that those other Gods truly excist, and they really did walk the earth and grew into powerful beings. Only way to name other gods is while you crit your teeths and hunt their so said cults.
They did also become Gods for reasons, and inside setting it sure isn't bad idea to recall that they could be a real threat if you just spit on their name all the time.
Just my humble opinion, and I agree with RWG and his ideal image on how to play fates out.
Some patrons however do not mix. A follower of Tyr would not offer prayers to Beshaba but instead Tymora for luck. They both have the same domain (luck) but they offer two entirely different influences on that domain. You would not want to give Beshaba power by offering her a prayer and encouraging her misuse of the domain.
Maybe if you were of one of the neutral alignment you might, if only to turn her wrath away from you and on to another in exchange for giving her slight power. But a good person would not give power to an evil being in exchange for turning said being's wrath on another person. Sounds evil to me.
But, just because you do not care for a domain or deity, do not like it, or even are opposed to it, you do not have to go about cursing them because you are not offering prayer. Lack of prayer is not the opposite of prayer, it is the absence.
Plenty of good sailors pray and give offerings to Umberlee.
This annoyed me no end while playing an evil cleric, glad I'm not the only one who noticed! The evil deities are still that, deities. They have power and are quite willing to use it if they are not given the right respect they are due, part of me thinks that perhaps they would be given more veneration at times, as they would be known to be spiteful and wicked in their vindication of people who do not do so. I always think back to 'old testament' God, and how he was more than willing to reek havoc on people who did not live by his will.
Quoteuyou would not want to give Beshaba power by offering her a prayer and encouraging her misuse of the domain.
Beshaba demands that
everyone, no matter their patron or their values, offer her at the minimum lip service,. As such, she is called to all weddings, speeches, formal events etc. if she is not given it she will curse your days with misfortune. This applies to everyone, unless you are a cleric of Tymora.
That she demands doesn't mean you are under obligations to do so. One might turn to a Tymoran to bless the day instead.
Of course nobody is under obligation to do anything, however given that the mindset of the common folks of the FR setting are supposed to be a simple peoples, I am quite sure that given the fear spreading and obvious evidence of her whims would make most people do as she asked?
I have to disagree here, otherwise, no good deity could hope to match an evil one, if fear was the best mean to get worship and lip service.
Most aspects of anything are often served by two gods, one good, one evil. It is always up to the people to decide if they turn to one they fear or one they like. Hence, they often have alternatives to decide who to turn to, regardless of what the other demands or promotes.
Most people certainly aren't going to worry about the power of their prayer giving any God power to abuse.
Unless a character actively stands against the functions that a God stands for (like a Helmite priest and Mask) they're going to use the God that fits the moment. If someone has a run of bad luck, they will attempt to appease Beshaba. If they have a run of good luck, they will thank Tymora. If they are in the middle they will say a prayer to both, because two Gods are better than one and you wouldn't want them cancelling each other out.
edit: How would people even know that their prayers are going to give a God power (to misuse or not)? It won't be common knowledge.
All the people really know is the superstition that insulting a God pisses off that God, who will then take it out on your puny hide.
a Banite farmer?
Common folks are likely to latch on to the dominant religion in their area. Tymoran farmer near Arabel, Banite farmer near Zhentil Keep. Doesn't mean they go around shouting their faith from the rooftops, or even knowing what their god really stands for.
This is the case with some people even in these times of infinitely accessible information.
i think there is more to characters than being "GOOD" or "OF TYR" or "FARMER" that influence their god worship choices
Quote from: Calavera;120882a Banite farmer?
Dreadmaster walks up with three soldiers in tow. "You there, Farmer. Bane demands your respect and fealty. Your lands are now property of the Zhentarim and we shall be using them to feed our army in the region. Bane is your new master."
Farmer "...[gulp] Y-Yes sir...Praise bane, Sir...Please don't kill me sir. Praise Bane"
Bam. Banite Farmer.
All of this has been said before, it is true that more characters should react to the deities and offer prayers, yet there are many exceptions, not all of us are playing common characters, and I believe Paladins, Divine Champions and Clerics need not be included.
Personally, I feel that we should worry more of such classes being played wrongly and devout characters who hardly ever pray or even speak of their patron deity are more annoying to me.
Quote from: Calavera;120882a Banite farmer?
What does a Banite farmer grow?
Beats!
Oh man, that gnome in the n00b tower oughta use that!
Seriously though..I like to think I pray to one god, and thank the others for the things they do..Chauntea for the land, Umberlee for the safe voyage, etc.
I think to slander a god is to invite their wrath...I don't need divine wrath!
Unfortunately our setting being what it is, FR is not strictly a polytheistic community and they've inserted plenty of Medieval Judeo/Christian influences on religious conflict, faith and ecclesiastical organisation.
The result is a confusing hodgepodge, and often a character's patron will directly tell them to oppose certain Gods. As Wern8 states it's hard at that point for a devout worshipper that even derives spell from a deity that has such a dogma -- to then turn around and pay homage to the very gods he has been sworn to oppose. I can see it happening, but I definitely don't think it's something that is necessary for proper roleplay.
Quote from: Sinister Seneschal;120953Unfortunately our setting being what it is, FR is not strictly a polytheistic community and they've inserted plenty of Medieval Judeo/Christian influences on religious conflict, faith and ecclesiastical organisation.
The result is a confusing hodgepodge, and often a character's patron will directly tell them to oppose certain Gods. As Wern8 states it's hard at that point for a devout worshipper that even derives spell from a deity that has such a dogma -- to then turn around and pay homage to the very gods he has been sworn to oppose. I can see it happening, but I definitely don't think it's something that is necessary for proper roleplay.
Oh, No doubt. I'll be the first to say I don't even do this all the time. And it isn't required for Proper roleplay at all.
It just always irked me to see Clerics of gods like Umberlee, Talona, Beshaba, and Talos being told to go to hell by PC's. From the way this thread spiraled out of control I guess I didn't get that point across well, but there are gods out there that are scary, vengeful, and will make your life miserable if you don't appease them. Even good guys should try to appease them, not just their followers, is the Jist of what I was trying to get across.
Yea.. it's complicated. For me, and because i don't know D&D by any other way than NWN, i just chose a diety that made sence (acording to steve) and i foghet about it, if asked, i'll say i pray for it when alone and in private or something. And that only because druids need a god to cast spells..
My other character is faithless. Problem solved.
It is strongly recommended not to play a "Faithless" character.
The only people i could see telling openly evil clerics of besheba, bane, umberlee, talos to go to hell would be paladins and gods of very goodly cleric (Tyr, Lathander).... and they may not do so with great confidence.
Almost all lay people wouldn't want to piss off some powerful god who has a major portfolio in their everyday life.
Thats why for all non-cleric/paladin types i fully agree with RWG's point, and for much of the time even clerics of good gods may not want to openly display such contempt.
I, in my opinion openly embrace faithless characters. I have a large amount of fun occassionally finding that preacher, (which is preaching about things my character likes) and then roleplaying through a conversion environment.
Yet again another rampling from one of the old geezers.
It would be nice if zealots - clerics and paladins, would promote their deities more. It would be nice to hear them provide reason for praying to them in numerous situations. With such short lifespans there is little time to hear about other deities from them. It would be nice for to see less potion & wand businessmen and more refusals to provide the graces of the gods to ungrateful scum. "Oh I am sorry that buff turned out to be a curse, you must not have really meant that prayer. You had better mean it next time."
It would be nice for people to have a healthy fear of dieties - good and evil. it would be nice for non-zealots to actually have a few dieties in mind as they go about their day. You have a chance to choose from numerous dudes and chicks, why go for a boring monotheistic or faithless. Understanding that bad hit rolls or save rolls could be directly affected by how you have been paying attention to the deities is the way of the world.
Faithless - give me a break. Don't be so monogamous, (p)lay the field. Those dieties happen to be real in this game, duh! At least one sighting of a diety's avatar was IG some months back. Moander is also big in our EFU world. Just because you do not see them hanging at the gobsquat don't mean they are not important.
Simply because you do not have a specific deity you always worship does not mean you are faithless. Faithless means you do not believe in the Gods and/or do not worship any of them at any time.
Worshipping a God also help the DMs understand your character and his motivations better.
If we want to run something for a PC, it gives us an easy hook, etc. So that's another + of having a god that you researched slightly in your deity field!
Just yet another advantage.
In regards to the topic at hand which RwG is trying to address, the reason why most, yea nearly all, players are stuck in the deity-superiority complex is that most modern cultures (that is, those which this player base is drawn from) are no longer superstitious in such a way as these characters should be.
As far as I can tell, the FR pantheon and cosmos are most closely related to, of any one religion in human history, to the Greco-Roman pantheon and myths. Here we have:
- Large, splendorous temples to specific gods, significant bodies of people who adopted patron gods (most significant Greek city-states had a patron, the most notable would be Athens). Likewise, clergies who attend those specific temples and their gods, festivals devoted to certain gods, and heroes who often receive aid or blessings from particular gods (see: Odysseus/Athena, Aeneas/Aphrodite, etc).
- Deities with portfolios which encompassed particular trades, activities, or spheres of influence (Mercury: god of trade, orators, thieves, secrets, and travel. Apollo: god of musicians, medicine, artisans, hunters, and the sun. Minerva: goddess of council, inspiration, stratagems, warriors, and virginity. And so on.).
- The fundamental assumption that gods are likened to men, are individuals, and have similar motivations as men do (love, hate, vengeance, jealousy, etc [This is further exemplified by the fact that both cosmologies feature gods or demigods that were formerly mortal.]).
- Gods who feature predominantly in, and influence the outcomes of the efforts and conflicts of mortals, to the point of contradicting one another to further their aims. The Trojan War saw the gods taking sides with the mortals.
Therefore, to properly play in a setting like this, our characters must act closely to how classical Greeks and Romans would. What inhibits us from doing so, simply, is that we are not classical Greeks and Romans. To make matters worse, most, if not all, players on EfU come from the Judeo-Christian tradition (any one of the three major "religions of the Book" which come from the Old Testament: Islam, Christianity, and Judaism [apologies for those Hindus and Buddhists out there who I may have overlooked!]) which has a
very different perspective of divinity, and with that comes starkly incongruent ways of acting and thinking. This makes us pretty bad at playing superstitious polytheists.
The Judeo-Christian legacy reminds players that their characters should pray when undertaking an endeavor or to give thanks to a deity when they come into fortune, but what is lost is the reflex to search "to whom" those prayers must be directed simply due to the nature of monotheism. This is the fundamental issue that RwG is driving at, but it is worsened by contradictory natures of the two types of religion.
The nature of these modern religions "of the Book" also amplify the good/evil spectrum. Where in the Greco-Roman tradition, gods were seen to perform as many base, vulgar, or sinful acts as they did bestow mercies and do "good", the God of the Old Testament origins has the attribute of infallibility. He cannot be questioned, he cannot be toppled, he cannot be defeated, and as such, all sins, evil, and general amoral things in the world are either man's fault or man's responsibility to mitigate (what I term a "deity-superiority complex"). Players go into the FR cosmology seeing those gods not as individuals with certain agendas, personalities, or characteristics, but rather as agents of Good, Evil, or whatever alignment they have been defined as in this somewhat limiting system of D&D's. Since I am assuming that FR's pantheon and belief system is closest to the Greco-Roman style, and since the former is closer to that style, and the latter stemming from the Judeo-Christian belief, playing via that second mindset is wrong. Where people of the Book are looking to be guided, corrected, and shown the way by their celestial exemplar in the sky, seeking purity through virtue, piety, and morality, I feel as though polytheists often treat their divinities as explanations for everything that they see around them, a thought process crowned by etiological myths and genealogies of the gods and their mortal children.
So, what we get is a crossing over. We apply our mindset to this really very radically different belief structure and force the superstitions of Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant (just for example) traditions into the gap left by our misunderstanding of monotheism, and everything becomes dissonant. We can see that come out pronouncedly in our setting (and much of the familiar FR setting) because much of it is based on the medieval Catholic west (and a mix of the medieval Muslim middle/near-East). So, it is easy to blame this inconsistent setting for our religion woes, but even in its validity it is ultimately a scapegoat for ourselves.
To overcome our problem with playing polytheists can be overcome by escaping the monotheist thought process, and try to think about your character's deities as the Greeks and Romans might have. I imagine people going about their daily lives as usual, respecting shrines if they see them, making way for priests if they encounter them, performing rituals if the need arises or it is the proper occasion*, and really only calling upon specific gods when it is proper. Of course, it is not fully applicable because in FR magic is real and so are the gods, so the air of mystery, superstition, and ritual are mingled stupidly with (or even dispelled by) a kind of empirical modern magical meta-science.
(*Some ideas: When someone wished to undertake some great endeavor, they consulted an oracle, payed a significant tithe to a priest of the patron god of the proper occasion [Bacchus for a party, Mars for a battle, Janus for a housewarming, Hera for a birth, Asclepius when a loved one fell ill, Poseidon before a voyage...] and performed sacrifices. If they disliked someone immensely, they performed a curse in the name of the stranger gods like Hecate, Hades, and The Fates along with some ritual. I am actually drawing these from the HBO series Rome which has a very real-feeling way of making the gods present in every-day life, however leaving the meddlings of mortals to mortals.)
This exploration of the frustration of FR's perplexing religious situation in mind, my suggestion would be to play however you want, because it's fantasy! Regardless of the irony of my conclusion rendering this whole dissertation pointless, I think that people can get away with whatever they want here - particularly zealous characters, characters who do little more than pay lip service to their immortal betters, or characters who do what they need to do to get through the day. My take on it is that most people in this kind of setting instinctually analyze the situation that they are in and glean which deity, if sated or appealed to, would best or most willingly aid them. I also think that mortals fighting wars in the name of certain gods is silly. However, lobbying for the alliance of a certain god to your cause (which is made all the easier if your cause falls under their portfolio) is totally cool. Even though it's not how things roll, I would be pleased to see fewer "[Class] of [Deity]" characters (excepting divine spellcasters, of course). Monks who seek self-perfection through the observation of death would revere Kelemvor or Velsharoon, but would not be insistently upholding their dogmas or fighting religious wars for them. Likewise for opportunistic rogues who tend to worship Mask, stoic sailors who give their good words to Valkur (and definitely do NOT scorn Umberlee!), kindly merchants who pray to Tymora for good deals, and warriors who seek Tempus' aid to win battles for his lord or employer. It is especially important to keep this in mind for the deities who foster in players concepts for more extreme characters, such as Torm, Tyr, Bane, Cyric, Hoar, and Garagos. I challenge you all to think of some unique ways of employing these gods as your PC's patrons. E.g. a world-weary veteran of the wars who has seen considerable slaughter and ruin and prays to Garagos ritually to assure that same bloodthirst and savagery from destroying him. His play-style might be, however, closer to a Tempusian or Red Knightist: calculating, careful, and honorable, yet tired, cynical, and fierce when seriously threatened.
[As a footnote, while you may claim to be atheist, non-religious, or a believer in some drastic order or unique spirituality, chances are if you grew up in a country predominantly Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, you are applicable to what I call the Judeo-Christian tradition due to the inescapable influence which your culture exerts on you and your formative years.]
Too smart. Didn't read :P
The gnome in the noob tower asked me if I knew what a Banite farmer grows. :)
Quote from: Underbard;121230The gnome in the noob tower asked me if I knew what a Banite farmer grows. :)
Are you serious?! 0.o
Well put Secutor. I've always sort of pictured it like that (Greek or Roman). I think there's likely a diety you were born/ raised/ taught of and accepted. But you know of the others and their power; and that power is real and to be feared a bit.
More DM action when they see diety bashing IMO...a curse, a lightning bolt...be creative ;)
I honestly think that lack of respect to certain deities need to cause the effects. If people show no respect to Talos make storms on the island strike lightning at Pcs and all around. If people have no respect and insult Umberlee give them hell if they ever decide to take up sailing somewhere. ETC that is my idea and maybe then Pcs will wake up and see that gods are a contributing force and not just clerics that can be killed or an afterlife.
-DRD
Well, we do a certain degree of that but my personal preference is for deities to remain fairly aloof. Those kinds of punishments are best reserved for PC servants of particular deities. Disrespect a deity, and the deity will expect their cleric to handle the punishment - and maybe send a 43rd tier adjudication assistant's assistant's rank 4a(c) servant to reward a cleric that does a good job of that.
Gods and godesses walking the earth and meddling in human affairs directly is not something you will see much in EFU!
Oh I was talking more on the lines of simple lightning strikes during storms not deities themselves walking over toril slaying heretics.