How would people feel if there was a way (a thrown item such as a tanglefoot bag but different and more expensive) for monsters or other players to disable Expertise Mode/Improved Expertise Mode of another player.
Example: "You throw an sack of magic dust in the eyes of someone -- it distracts them -- they lose expertise/improved expertise until they reactivate it manually."
"Similarly, a type of monster can throw a special new attack that doesn't do any damage but distract PCs and make them break expertise/improved expertise"
Please make your arguments clear and succinct. Discuss.
If the goal is reality, then it makes sense.
Will it have a save of some sort?
PC vs. Monster I'd say not so much. For the first time ever I'm playing a character who not only uses Expertise, but embraces it. Its surprisingly fun to RP, and it brings in alot of fun stuff I never thought about when playing (Since I rarely play line).
There are times where your party has to retreat and the only way you all can survive is with some well placed expertise. If, as a frontliner, your entire line breaks, You're left fighting alot of stuff and that makes life difficult. Perhaps even impossible if they throw anti-expertise stuff your way.
Slightly off topic, but on the issue of "Monsters with more stuff" I'd much rather see monsters with more See Invis.
Wizards buffing then going an entire quest while invisible without adding anything to the party (Even if its just barking orders/tactics, using healing wands etc, that's fine), but folks just prebuffing the party then hiding while invisible without taking risk, is something that bugs me far more than expertise/improved expertise.
Back on topic,
I believe for PC vs PC it would be cool to see (We all know how Expertise vs. Expertise duels are), but overall isn't that imperative.
Fighting someone who has expertise up also gives you +5 or +10 AC after all (Since, afterall, they lose -5 or -10 AB) You just have to fight smarter, not harder to beat them.
A Magic bullet to completely null a feat isn't something I'd like to see implimented. I'd much rather see PC's coming up with creative means to defeat it rather than simply blanking it out.
It should similarly be possible to de-toggle Power Attack, Dirty Fighting, Parry, Defensive Casting, Detect, Stealth, and any other "modes" I've forgotten. This is a neat concept from City of Heroes/Villains - and really awesome for PvP.
Furthermore, loot that allows you to ignore certain de-toggles would be great. They should be amulets, armor, or maybe anything other than rings (since you can wear two of those), so that you have to decide between stats or security.
For PvP, I like it. For PvE, not so much.
I'd like to see methods where in PvP, it's not a case of who has more pots or a better pwr build, but who has tactics. So making this avalible to PC's is a good idea, it should be rare, but -very- useful.
QuoteI'd like to see methods where in PvP, it's not a case of who has more pots or a better pwr build, but who has tactics. So making this avalible to PC's is a good idea, it should be rare, but -very- useful.
If they are rare, then once again, it is a case of who is better supplied. They should be accessible easily enough so that those who have more playtime do not have an unfair advantage over those who do not.
Personally, I do not like this idea. An item that negates a feat seems to be very powerful. If there is an item to negate such a feat, why shouldn't there be items that take away the spellcasting ability of a wizard, or other abilities that help a class survive.
agree with REquiem, just another loot to have for PvP along with the 20 different potions and wands you need to have, please have a printable form you can checkmark to see if you're pvp ready.
Much better if Expertise and Imp. were adjusted for the server level range so that they gave 3 and 6 AC instead of 5 and 10.
Quote from: AfroMullet;121984If there is an item to negate such a feat, why shouldn't there be items that take away the spellcasting ability of a wizard, or other abilities that help a class survive.
Ever seen the oh so common...
Warrior's Shield Of Silence15 Lbs
2AC
Improved Sonic Saves+2
10 Charges
Silence (3) 1 charge/use.
Pick up from trash, find caster, beat them over the head while giggling at their lack of spell usage. :P
But as Req said, rare stuff that can swing a fight is a bit of a bugger for a lot of players. I'd go so far as to say that rare consumables like TS and Stoneskin pots can really give a heavy edge. If it exists and it's not completely epic, everyone should me able to have one in reserve (even if its expensive to) if you aim for balance.
I'd like to see more cheap things that are only useful in certain situations, but are powerful then so it's a case of "the right device in the right place" not "find where TS pots drop and whore that quest"
Thinking about this though: You sacrifice one round (throwing the bomb) to knock a character out of expertise for (probably) one round before they swap it back. You'll get one shot at them with lower AC in exchange for them getting a free shot at you when you're spending a round bombing them. Doesn't seem OP in a 1v1, but would be useful if you outnumber them. Although in that case, you have the edge anyway.
I would like to see perhaps an "anti-stealth marker bomb" that lets you bring someone out of hiding. It would have limited use compared to just walking up and hitting them until they run off, but might be useful for non-violently pointing out an eavesdropper.
QuoteFolks just prebuffing the party then hiding while invisible without taking risk, is something that bugs me far more than expertise/improved expertise.
If you're playing a wizard or sorc who's not built to be tough as nails and keep combat spells handy, that's often the only safe (and IC, if every single mob in the QA can kill you easily) thing to do. That said, every wizard I've played has had crossclass skills and/or Heal to enable them to perform some other role than spells. (Ahmed picks locks and plays medic).
See Invis would be terrifying for anyone trying to escape, as Invis is more reliable that running away, since monsters ALWAYS cross a transition before you as they have no load time.
Against wizards there's dispel (lots of dispel-charged items, too, at least when I was playing) plus the fact that they're squishy. INT poison is also a killer for them (and they tend to have low fort. saves).
We're not talking about "strip the feat away from them" - we're talking about switching it from the "on" position to the "off" position. Next round, as long as they notice it's down, they can flip it back up (which is something wizards can't do when they're dispelled - at least, not for free, since they need to cast all over again). For an attacker to turn it back off, the attacker needs to use more resources again, while their opponent can just keep turning their feat back on.
Also, adjusting Expertise has been suggested before; but it's not possible.
I think this is a GREAT idea. The ability to remove Expertise, which requires you to put at least 5 points in what is (for a lot of warriors) a dump stat and takes up one or two feats (which is half of your feats if you are a wizard), is freakin awesome.
Especially since using this feat comes with absolutely no drawbacks inherent within itself (like the inability to hit something otherwise equally armored).
In fact, why stop here? We should continue down this path and create ways to neutralize ALL of those feats. What are feats? They're a dime a dozen! Fighters have so many feats, they just start throwing them away on ignorant stuff.
A way to disable those pesky weapon proficiencies would be nice. I've always been really annoyed (especially in PvP) that people can hit me with weapons.
You know what else is annoying? Weapon finesse. Srsly, following the same logic, we should be able to neutralize this as well. I HATE people who don't put points in Str being able to hit me as often as if they had. What kind of BS is that?
[/sarcasm]
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Seriously, though:
I know everybody hates Expertise and Imp Expertise cause it makes people really annoying to hit (especially in PvP)... but it's a viable method of building your character that takes up one or two feats, has an ability requirement, and tosses on a hefty AB penalty. People who pick these feats shouldn't be punished by some sort of feat targeting ability, property, or item.
Magic Eye Dust feels like it should remove x points of Dodge AC across the board.Something that causes a distraction should distract everyone, not just people who are 'fighting defensively' (which is what expertise boils down to).
If implemented, it should require both an attack roll AND allow a save (probably a will save). (Or allow a reflex save AND a will save (no attack roll in this instance)). Also draw an AoO.
Or simply cause blindness.
Here's some canon Magic Dust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm) and what it does.
Neat in pvp, if there's some way to resist it (discipline/concentration check?).
Not useful otherwise, as E and IE always toggle on/off in the middle of a fight, which gets the pc in more trouble than he's prepared to face, sometimes.
Fully support in both PvP and PvE.
I do think there should be a reflex save, similar to tanglefoot though.
Drama.
You guys are overdramatizing an item-charge that remove expertise for one round (or until the user reactivate it). It would just require people to be more active rather than hit IE and go get a Soda.
Do note that e/ie is one of the few things that gets nerfed with 3.5 .
This change wouldn't nerf it. Probably be barely visible and It doesn't make it OBSOLETE in any way.
Similarly, in PvP, removing expertise for one round would only be effective if you had a group to follow through since using an item takes 1 round so the other dude could just re-activate it.
I'd suspect a concentration/discipline check would probably be the thing to counter this effect.
Cut the drama, please.
I suggest that it deactivates E/IE for two rounds, concentration check of 15-20.
Quote from: ScottyB;121981It should similarly be possible to de-toggle Power Attack, Dirty Fighting, Parry, Defensive Casting, Detect, Stealth, and any other "modes" I've forgotten. This is a neat concept from City of Heroes/Villains - and really awesome for PvP.
Furthermore, loot that allows you to ignore certain de-toggles would be great. They should be amulets, armor, or maybe anything other than rings (since you can wear two of those), so that you have to decide between stats or security.
I believe this would be suitably awesome, if posisble.
I disagree with the idea of an item that, when thrown at a target, reduces their AC by 5 or 10 points. If there were a save involved, say Concentration, or Fortitude, whatever, that wouldn't be as bad.
The round-timing to activate expertise is finnicky, sometimes waiting an extra round to re-engage if it is clicked a quarter second too late. I think if monsters start cancelling expertise and such, all you are going to get is more full/half party wipes. The opponents in many of the quests on EfU feature attack bonuses that are triflingly high, leading to the prevalence of the "expertise fighter." What you will, instead have, is a monster detoggling the feat, the player reclicking it on, and occasionally it simply will not work, and the player will be surrounded by monsters with 15AB that do 15 damage a hit. When he is killed in that single round, the whole party will break and everyone will be emo about it.
script more monsters to use the taunt feat, or put in more spellcasting monsters, or script the expertise feat to provide lessened bonuses (like a secondary +2AB/-2AC). I simply have the feeling that changing statuses and actions on the player side will be buggy, and leave people with hard feelings.
my two cents!
Meow-mix!
I like it, sounds good! Especially against PvP noobs who think using Expertise is ever a good idea in a duel; it'd make it easier to finish those fights because you don't fall asleep from boredom.
(Have you ever seen /anyone/ use Expertise in PvP and come out for the better for it?)
Quote from: lovethesuit;122016I disagree with the idea of an item that, when thrown at a target, reduces their AC by 5 or 10 points. If there were a save involved, say Concentration, or Fortitude, whatever, that wouldn't be as bad.
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I agree there should be a check, but I also believe that you are forgetting that it's not just an AC increase by 5 or 10, but also a THAC0 decrease by 5 or 10 points.
Edit: Oops, I mean AC decrease and AB increase.
I agree with Meow-mix that it would cause a lot of pain in pve, but it might be nice in pvp.
Quote from: Jasede;122021(Have you ever seen /anyone/ use Expertise in PvP and come out for the better for it?)
Yep.
Morningblood. Repeatedly.
One of my characters, against a taunter.
What it is good for is running out the clock on domain powers, Divine Power, Barbarian Rage, Taunts, and other powerful, short duration effects.
I have a bard that uses taunt+expertise in duels, and its effective. (She beat belm in a duel without getting hit once :P)
It'd be fun to have crazy evil pranksters removing Expertise from the frontliner and running off giggling, too.
Elite Kobold Jester!
Also, thanks Egon, that's some uses of Expertise I tend to overlook sometimes; it's pretty clever to let those kick-ass buffs run out if you can't dispel 'em.
There are lots of non-noobish ways to use expertise.
It levels the playing field against high ab, low ac enemies, you can take a few rounds to check out your opponent's capabilities and you can screw your opponent's chance of scoring crits (a deal breaker against some).
Monsters breaking expertise seems like a very bad idea, unless the idea is to kill expertise fighters.
PvP, it seems like a very good idea.
A player would have to spend a round using the item anyway, so it's not as though it's going to flip the scales on their head or anything.
And if there's to be a check, I'd say concentration is the one. Those expertisers have at least 13 int anyway, so they can afford the skill points.
If this is implemented, I would suggest there being a way for the one being de-expertised to get a more attention grabbing message than the usual one the engine uses.
It would be hard to control when someone can re-activate Expertise Mode. If the timing is just right, they can bring it back up immediately after seeing it go down. If the timing is bad, it might take a round and a half (effectively 2 rounds) for it to be on again.
There isn't a clean way to "suppress" Expertise Mode, just toggle on/off. Perhaps the feat activation itself can be hooked into NWNX, but I don't know for sure. If we could hook activations of non-spell-based feats then we'd have added a stealth hook + cooldown for people with HiPS a long time ago, I think.
Supported... only if there is some kind of save against. I think discipline is likely the best candidate.
Why not just use Taunt.
It works effectively the same way as people are suggesting, but with Concentration.
I am not suggesting that we Taunt to implement the above, but that could be one approach.
I am saying why bother with some other effect when we already have Taunt.
Best of all Taunt works regardless of whether the opponent is using E/IE. It also causes spell failure. It potentially lasts longer than the 2 rounds suggested. This is balanced by the fact it costs skill points to acquire, and you must take a round flat-footed in melee to try it. Could AI be set to Taunt more often, with certain monsters invested in the skill?
Taunt is great, but less useful for certain most classes since it is cross class. This would just allow other classes an option to break through certain types of defenses.
I'll let you know, One of my PCs had a base skill of 5 taunt. And his total taunt score broke 20.
I dont like this for PvE. I second this opinion.
Quote from: "Meow-mix"The round-timing to activate expertise is finnicky, sometimes waiting an extra round to re-engage if it is clicked a quarter second too late. I think if monsters start cancelling expertise and such, all you are going to get is more full/half party wipes. The opponents in many of the quests on EfU feature attack bonuses that are triflingly high, leading to the prevalence of the "expertise fighter." What you will, instead have, is a monster detoggling the feat, the player reclicking it on, and occasionally it simply will not work, and the player will be surrounded by monsters with 15AB that do 15 damage a hit. When he is killed in that single round, the whole party will break and everyone will be emo about it.
As for PvP, there are fights where one person turns on Improved expertise and then does nothing else. And the fights take a boring 15 minutes. Then again, this suggestion may not change that fact at all, since when you deactivate expertise, you are increasing their ab by 5 to 10. So... Dust in the eyes hardly works in this situation.
I believe below would be a much better adjustment to see, over some item that may or may not give an edge over someone in PvP. Those that rock at PvP anyway will be ready for it, and those that dont just have another weapon that results in them dieing suddenly.
Quote from: Nihm;121989Much better if Expertise and Imp. were adjusted for the server level range so that they gave 3 and 6 AC instead of 5 and 10.
There are cases where expertise mode sticks. Say... Fear, Hold Person, Knockdown. In PvE the fact that your expertise doesnt drop /can/ save your hide (sometimes). In PvP its rather annoying, and thats honestly the only time I see this item actually being worth its implimentation. imo, the above suggested change to expertise makes sense, followed by having those effects when failed, detoggle the feat.
You want to detoggle someones Expertise? KD them. Fear them. Hold Person. That would seem a much less glitchy way of doing this.
Daze, Stun... If I think of any more I'll toss them up here. Lots of ways to make this work. And! This way, they are on a timer before they can re-establish their expertise-ing.
Nihm's suggestion of changing the AC value of E/IE is not possible with my (admittedly outdated) understanding of NWNX plugins.
Concentration would seem the most sensible skill to make the save with. Never had a PC with this feat so not sure if it is too much of a nerf. I suppose if you have to hit with a touch attack and there is then a save that would be pretty balanced.
Can you script the disabling effects and abilities to toggle off expertise, stealth, detect mode, and the like?
Disabling effects are as follows:
Stunning, Dazing, Paralysis, Hold Person, Fear, Knockdown ?
((thinking back, maybe it shouldnt disable stealth <_<, that would suck to have to watch yourself die because the monster behind you turned on a fear aura and charged the monster on the other side of you)
While on the subject it would be really neat if you could script something (and I'm sure that due to limitations this would unfortunately have to be set -before- the battle and not at all during) that allows you to use feat as the PnP version.
Quote from: FleetingHeart;122057Taunt is great, but less useful for certain most classes since it is cross class. This would just allow other classes an option to break through certain types of defenses.
That's an argument against implementation rather than for.
Taunt is an incredibly useful skill, and allowing every class to use it is effectively nerfing the ones that have it as a class skill.
Quote from: Ebok;122115Can you script the disabling effects
Stunning, Dazing, Paralysis, Hold Person, Fear, Knockdown ?
Not in any practical sense, no. If we tried to do this then I'm sure we'd spend the next few years dealing with bug reports "this spell/feat/item causes an effect that should de-toggle, but it isn't!"
Quote from: scribjellydonut;122131While on the subject it would be really neat if you could script something (and I'm sure that due to limitations this would unfortunately have to be set -before- the battle and not at all during) that allows you to use feat as the PnP version.
Due to engine limitations, this isn't even possible. I had already said that changing it to +3 AC/-3 AB was impossible. Why would you think that making it +X/-X where X is player-selected (1 to 5) would be any more feasible? (I assume you meant PnP Combat Expertise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise).)
*rains on everyone's parade*(FWIW, if we go the sand item route, it should be an AOE cloud that affects everyone, even allies and the user, in some negative way, in addition to the de-toggling.)
Quote from: Jayde Moon;121997Magic Eye Dust feels like it should remove x points of Dodge AC across the board.Something that causes a distraction should distract everyone, not just people who are 'fighting defensively' (which is what expertise boils down to).
+1,000,000 Now, that makes sense
Do it. Just to stop this discussion, do it.
I've never used expetise, and i find it too boring to remain at the front, unable to hit -anything- yet being half-inmortal. So i don't care much. Why not beta-test it? have a week or an alternative server to try this out.
I would like to go ahead and put my two cents in.
Expertise, IMO, is the ability of the character to fight in a strategic manner. Strategy requires brains, hence the intelligence requirement for the feat. They are able to say "I see what you're about to do there" and immediately compensate for the actions of their adversary in a manner that deflects the attack. The downside of course being that in doing so they don't gain any ground over their opponent.
When an opponent lands an attack on a fighter in expertise, it means they have done something that the expertise fighter did not see or expect, or did not have time or ability to compensate for. Whatever that may be. That may very well have been a handful of dust in the expertise fighter's eyes. There are hundreds of styles of fighting and attacks a person may make but only a very finite amount of animations to represent this in the game engine. This is where imagination comes into play. The point is, they got an attack in. The game engine already takes care of this and to implement an additional way to "get around" expertise is superfluous.
I can understand how folks without expertise would be annoyed with the length of time it takes to land a hit on an expertise fighter in PvP, but meanwhile, you aren't getting hit either.
It should be tough to take on a fighter with expertise. They have invested the points in Int and taken the feats... IC to me this represents that the character has spent a good portion of their combat training learning how to anticipate and respond to attacks defensively, rather than spending their time learning how to be a powerhouse of destruction. If you're going to make an item to toggle off a person's expertise, you should also make an item that can toggle off power attack, or cleave, for example.
I think that if people are looking for ways to better engage an expertise fighter in PvP, they should think more about strategy instead of looking for some item that they think will even the playing field.
If you really want to get into PvP with an expertise fighter, team up with a wizard who can cast hold person, or a cleric casting fear or scare (whichever is the higher one). Or an assasin who has a death attack (my high level fighter with Imp. Expertise was killed in seconds because of a death attack from a *spoiler*). All these things will compensate quite effectively for the expertise AND it makes it more fun for everyone because the opponent has involved other people and the person playing the fighter doesn't feel like they lost because a major part of their build was simply disabled.
To address the perception that expertise is somehow an auto-pilot mode for handling mobs... Keep in mind that natural 20's still score hits and that many spell effects disregard armor class completely. So you still have to keep an eye on your buffs and hit points. Using potions, wands and items drops you out of expertise for one to two rounds. You are now surrounded by several opponents who are getting attacks of opportunities or you're manuvering out of melee, which toggles off your expertise and draws the AoOs anyway (plus you have a mob chasing you).
The point is, expertise is not some sort of free ride and I fail to see any balance issues that need to be addressed, thus requiring the addition of the suggested property.
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;122388I've never used expetise, and i find it too boring to remain at the front, unable to hit -anything- yet being half-inmortal. So i don't care much. Why not beta-test it? have a week or an alternative server to try this out.
If you have never used something then I'm afraid your opinion might be taken lightly on the subject.
I am against this change for many of the reasons listed above, but to be more specific I will list them quickly.
- Lost stats and feats to acquire this ability
- This is not a 'free ride' as said, and even in expertise a fighter can do a large amount of damage while they are buffed, which they are going to be typically. They also still take a large amount of damage and often times the burst damage from a critical hit is even more unexpected and causes a quicker death.
- Removing this feats' usefulness only further adds to the Barbarian class that is in all honestly, very powerful here. They already have more HP, better movement, damage reduction and for most builds, lack only the expertise of a trained warrior while having the ability to enrage and get even more attack bonus than a fighter.
For Rage to be extremely useful, CHA points need to be spent, in a manner analogous as to how INT must be dished out if you want expertise. Also, barbarians have terrible AC in comparison to fighters; their movement speed bonus/DR (1 point of physical at level 4 iirc) does not make up for the myriad feats a fighter gets.
This is not a discussion about the relative strengths and weaknesses of fighters and barbarians/other frontliner types. My two cents is that while I would not be against the addition suggested by Mort, I tend to side with the people who say that Expertise isn't overpowered or imbalanced, just much more easily hated on because it makes battles 'boring' as opposed to two-round hyper-damage bonanzas.
I am extremely opposed to the idea Mort presents.
Playing a Frontliner is already deadly enough as it is. The concerns of being healed without invoking AoOs, destructive critical hits, the glitchy way that combat is already implemented in NWN (wherein for no reason at all, your character may move in battle, take 3 AoO's, and lose Expertise, and nearly die for it) make playing such characters obscenely hard. The additional responsibility of a frontliner having to be concerned with monsters stripping him of his only means of survival when he's surrounded by 8 enemies, and taking two attacks per round from each, seems to me the definition of OVERKILL.
On the other hand, in PvP I am not opposed to the implementation of the idea at all. Dirt tossing and so on in the midst of battle is an additional layer of depth to a PvP system which could genuinely use some measure of tactical variety.
Just don't give it to the monsters. Going on difficult Scripted Quests is already a dismal experience to be avoided at all cost.
Instead of going OFF TOPIC like the rest of you blokes, it doesn't really matter to me much if expertise was able to be stripped off via an item. Sure, it'd be nice in some situations, but for the most part, it won't make much of an impact, and if it won't, then why bother?
I think FI summed it up pretty well. I've only really tried expertise with one PC, and there is a big trade-off, and once you make that switch from offense to defense in your build, you are pretty much stuck with it. The ability to strip this feat from a defensive build would be far worse that say, the ability to take knockdown away from a tank. After all, he is still a tank. I think it would be best to leave it as is.
Kiaring, you are wrong about rage. If you have 8-10 charisma and you put those points into strength your strength while raging will be comparable to someone with 14 charisma in rage. High base strength, equal strength in rage, low charisma is certainly balanced.
Anyways, as for this suggestion, I think sinply disabling IE makes more sense, as it is the feat that breaks pve in this level range and makes PVP boring. Nihms suggestion, if possible, is good as well.
QuoteSlightly off topic, but on the issue of "Monsters with more stuff" I'd much rather see monsters with more See Invis.
For the love of everything please please please do not do that.
I'd rather not have to be a level 12 fighter to explore the whole server thank you muchly!
As for the topic, expertise is very boring to watch happen, even when your the one using it, (unless one has a really high AB to begin with I imagine..) I don't think monsters should have the item, unless the said item is droppable, in which case, yeah sure go ahead.