Currently all bards must take perform to get the most out of their class. They're the only class with this skill and it essentially means that to get their class benefits they only get 3 skill points a level. Remove perform as a skill and they get their full four skill points.
No other class uses perform so I do not think it is an accurate judge of an artists ability in things. Instead I believe persuade, bluff, or intimidate are all better judges of how well a performance went -- or just actually doing a sweet, interesting show. Thus as a social skill it is pretty useless.
If this was possible to script, I would be for this.
Definitely agree. In PnP they get 6 points a level, same as Rogues. I have no idea why Bioware nerfed it to 4 points, as Bards get a lot of skills and you can't reach good levels in half of them with only 4 SP. I love playing bards, but they don't have any spare skillpoints to add flavour and variation to builds. Especially as they have to spread their attributes across Str, Dex, Con and Chr.
Bards tend to fall into:
Combat Bard
Perform, Discipline, Tumble, Taunt, Concentration, possibly Spellcraft or UMD. Spread thin.
Sneaky Bard
Hide, Move Silently, Perform, Tumble
Support/Diplomat RP Bard
Persuade/Perform/Lore/UMD
Fullplate Bard/ftr
The only opportunity I've had to expand a bard beyond one of these was playing Mr Banks, who was Bard 6/Rogue 3 and used those extra rogue points and a lower investment in Perform to round things out
TBH though, you don't necessarily need to script a non-requirement for Perform, which will lead to a lot of Bards who (technically) can't entertain for shit, although it would let musically/acting minded non-bards make "perform" checks. All you need is to make some dead common Perform bonus gear with some really good (as in, +5) bonuses, so bards only need a low investment and an item or two.
It's definitely possible and easy to do.
The thing is : Do we really do it?
I would say if you do this, make it so fighters and wizards and such can also take bluff/persuade as class skills. It is just as easy to do and would be so awesome.
HOWEVER, I do think something to be considered is : Do we really want to replace the need for perform? When you think about this, it is purely for a powerbuilder's benefit. (No Offence Gip). In exchange for their skillpoints, a bard boosts damage, saves, HP, and at later levels even AC of their Party. That is pretty awesome if you invest the skillpoints tbh.
From an RP Standpoint you could easily use other social skills to perform. But mechanically, we are suggesting that the bard gets all these bonusses for free? Sorry but I do not want to see bard/barbarians with low int who are rocking out the bard song despite their lack of skillpoints! Even if the skill perform is replaced (Which it definately should be if removed) It should not be something that you can advance when you advance as a nonbard tbh.
Ending the cynical viewpoint, it would be MUCH easier to simply enable perform for every class and make it a class skill, so any class could make it a social skill worth using.
The point of bards having access to lots of skills and not enough skill points is to force them to either specialize in a few or go the jack-of-all-trades route. I don't personally see how an extra skill point will change this much for the cost of an entire skill. If you want to get decent scores in all the skills possible, invest in the appropriate attributes and feats.
This doesn't change the point that it's relatively easy to get a sufficiently high Perform score in the first place; it isn't as though you need to put the maximum number of points into it unless you somehow manage to reach level 11.
Having read Cruzel's post - Enabling it for all classes would be excellent. Most excellent.
Strongly against.
Bard should take perform to get the more out of there class, just like rogue should take a lot of skills, warriors should probably take discipline, and so on. Should we scratch those skills too?
More so, perform is a non combat skill, and those are rare enough not to be scratched, else you can kiss the rp side goodbye, else only RL orators will get the best of social events, leaving the RL wordly-impaired with nothing left to hope for.
Perform reflects the artist side of the bard, not the persuade/bluff side, so people can be autists that can play intruments, carve, paint, whatever.
Don't scratch it.
Just my 2c.
14 Int human bard gets 7 SP's per level. Not enough?
Perform/UMD/Tumble/Conc/Disc ... and two more.
Don't take away from bards the thing which they have unique, IMO.
And also, if a bard with 100+ Perform, when performing, will emote:
... *Sings with nice voice* ...
I am going to ignore it.
However, if a bard with -10 Perform will be performing, but emoting HOW he performs, put in the lyrics if he's singing, I'm going to applaud him.
EDIT: Enabling it for all the classes? No way! I will sign a pact with a devil so it doesn't happen. In the BEST case make it available for other classes, but as a CROSS-CLASS skill. IMHO.
My main issue with bardsong in general is that the class ability requires that the appropriate bard level and skill check is made to achieve the desired benefit. This results in a rather large (at least in an EfU sense) gap where bards gain no new bardsong abilities. It also means that you can make full use of bardsong without using skill points in Perform if you have a way of increasing your skill check to the DC appropriate to the effect you want to use, assuming you are the requisite level. With items that give Perform bonuses that appear, its very possible to have low Perform ranks and still make the DCs needed to take full advantage of this ability.
I'd argue Bards find their niche elsewhere however, what with the ability to use such a wide range of consumables (bard only instruments, arcane wand proficiency, UMD). Even one level of this class opens up two of the aforementioned abilities, making it a formidable choice in any build regardless of how skill points are changed. Couple this with the ability to put ranks in (again) UMD, Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, and Spellcraft, and you have a class that already has access to some of the better skills in the game.
I don't really see the need for the change presently.
I will always stand by any arguement that allows for the crushing of the insistence "I took bard (or rogue) levels for the social skills" Screw that IMO. If I want to play a diplomatic fighter, I should be able to do so.
Similarily, if I want to play an artisticly inclined wizard, why should that be cross class if I want to take perform ranks?
SOCIAL SKILLS are something everyone has. Limiting them to two classes in the first place is completely retarded. The only thing this tends to lead to are poorly relecfted skillpoints in RP because you can't take enough skills to compliment your concept to begin with.
Quote from: Cruzel;123244But mechanically, we are suggesting that the bard gets all these bonusses for free?.
I do not feel they are free. The bard gets four skill points a level, down from six in PnP, they are a largely skills based class. They have this sweet class ability that almost every bard takes. If every bard is taking this skill -- which I feel the vast majority do -- then it means that bards are gimped with just three skill points. One more then a fighter, for a skills based class.
I do think there's something to be said for a fighter/bard having to invest skill points into perform in order to get the class bonus though. However, most fighter/bards have to invest about 4 points or less total to get the full bonuses they'll receive from bardsong -- which is not really a lot.
Quote from: Starless Night;12324714 Int human bard gets 7 SP's per level. Not enough?
Perform/UMD/Tumble/Conc/Disc ... and two more.
It is not enough. Perform, UMD, Tumble, Concentration, Disc, Bluff, Persuade, Taunt, Hide, Move Silently, Spellcraft, Lore... There are a slew of amazing skills, and even with one more, most bards are going to have to make some hard choices. Even with 14 int. Even with 18 int.
Uh, this is a really bad idea. Bards are performers, so they should take Perform. This isn't just a mechanics issue, but a roleplaying issue. If anything, More use should be made of Perform, rather than less. If you're upset about bards only using Perform for the bard song ability, then make a bard that performs publicly, puts on shows, plays in the inns, uses Perform to fascinate a crowd of enemies while your friends sneak by. Removing the entire skill is just plain stupid.
Quote from: Starless Night;123247And also, if a bard with 100+ Perform, when performing, will emote:
... *Sings with nice voice* ...
I am going to ignore it.
However, if a bard with -10 Perform will be performing, but emoting HOW he performs, put in the lyrics if he's singing, I'm going to applaud him.
You seem to imply here that the skill is rather useless. Also, most bards will simply have the exact same amount of perform as every other bard, unless there's items. It is an utterly useless skill that just serves to lower bard skills to three per level, from four.
Quote from: Cruzel;123250SOCIAL SKILLS are something everyone has.
Yes. Meaning, diplomacy. Bluffing. Persuading. Misleading.
But perform itself stands for the very specific trait an -artist- has, wether it's singing, making cobra's dance, juggling, playing David Copperfield, painting, drawing, dancing, writing... etc.
A bard is an artist.
A fighter, who focuses his whole life on fighting, is not an artist.
A cleric isn't either.
A rogue? Can have a few tricks under his sleeve, but still, is not an artist.
IMO if you want to play one of the above (painter, singer, writer etc.) you SHOULD play a bard. Use bard-song in different ways. Perform in the way your artist has devoted his life to and practised this damned juggling,
Except using that one point in perform can make a pure bard vastly superior to a pure fighter. The bard who actually sticks to bard levels and takes ranks in perform can definately match or even surpass a fighter with ease.
Quotemost bards are going to have to make some hard choices.
And so they should! Howland once told me when commenting on my blatant powerbuilding ; "You shouldn't try to make a PC who is amazing at everything, just pick some stuff and go with it." Or something along those lines. As said earlier in this thread, Bards have the option to focus on a few things and rock them out, or spread their skills out more evenly and be multitalented but not amazing.
Bards are amazing enough as it is tbh. Anything that improves them mechanicaly is really unneeded >.>
Rather, If your complain is that they do not get enough skillpoints per level, Have the DMs lock this thread and suggest that bards get the amount of skillpoints per level boosted. (Which is also possible and very easy. In fact, MUCH easier than removing perform as it's literally as easy as changing one number. Removing perform would require Nwscript edits as well and such.)
Quote from: Cruzel;123260Rather, If your complain is that they do not get enough skillpoints per level, Have the DMs lock this thread and suggest that bards get the amount of skillpoints per level boosted. (Which is also possible and very easy. In fact, MUCH easier than removing perform as it's literally as easy as changing one number. Removing perform would require Nwscript edits as well and such.)
Quote from: Snoteye;123260Son of a bitch. Cruzel is right.
Quote from: Starless Night;12324714 Int human bard gets 7 SP's per level. Not enough?
How many bards do you see with 14 int >_>
in all honesty i like the perform skill. for a couple of reasons.
1. Shows how commited a bard is to their art.
2. Forces powerbuilt ftrs who take bard for arcane wands and bardsong to use their skillpoints in making the bardsong actually worth it.
Though really, a much better fix for this would be to increase the amount of skillpoints given to bards per level. (1d6 if this is possible)
It would be easy to provide an override that increased the bard's skill points. HOWEVER, anyone who does not download the override will not be able to take advantage of the extra points. This means that players who download the extra content have a clear advantage over players who wandered into the server, have been playing for a while, or do not realize they've improperly installed the override.
We could create a new formula for bard song that is less reliant on Perform. But we would have to make sure it is balanced; and we would have to agree that bards need this kind of help in the first place.
I vote no. Perform and Bard are like black and white, Ozzie and Harriet, Thelma and Louise, Oreo and Cookie, Winston and Martin.
Keep perform. Cross class for other classes. Bluff/Persuade class skill for all classes.
Thank you.
Quote from: Cruzel;123250I will always stand by any arguement that allows for the crushing of the insistence "I took bard (or rogue) levels for the social skills" Screw that IMO. If I want to play a diplomatic fighter, I should be able to do so.
Similarily, if I want to play an artisticly inclined wizard, why should that be cross class if I want to take perform ranks?
SOCIAL SKILLS are something everyone has. Limiting them to two classes in the first place is completely retarded. The only thing this tends to lead to are poorly relecfted skillpoints in RP because you can't take enough skills to compliment your concept to begin with.
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
The amount of people who agree with Cruzel is disheartening and too much for my mind to bear.
Going to lock this.