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Main Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: scribjellydonut on May 12, 2009, 09:13:07 PM

Title: Hawk Companion
Post by: scribjellydonut on May 12, 2009, 09:13:07 PM
Has anyone played a ranger with a hawk companion?  I was just wondering because it seems to present some really nice RP venues in the way of the hawk scouting areas, and letting its master know.  Unfortunately due to the lack of control of an animal companion this would be impossible.  Do hawks then have really high spot skills?  Seeing as this seems to be the only useful thing they'd be good for, perhaps that & disarm(to simulate the hawk swooping down and making an attempt at grabbing something from an enemy).  I was just thinking of the Drizzt books and Montolio's familiar hooter that would let him know of orc movements and people in his grove.  Really they ought to be invincible from enemies too(but this may present a balance issue) since they would be flying too high to be hit by even arrows.  Thoughts?
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Post by: TheImpossibleDream on May 12, 2009, 09:20:45 PM
Arrows work fine against all birds, they have natural ac based upon their natural dodge bonuses, so invincibility would be silly!
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Post by: scribjellydonut on May 12, 2009, 09:58:24 PM
Quote from: TheImpossibleDream;125487Arrows work fine against all birds, they have natural ac based upon their natural dodge bonuses, so invincibility would be silly!

You can't really be suggesting you can hit a hawk soaring at an altitude of 100 meters with an arrow launched from a composite bow?  Even on a calm day this would be quite a feat.
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Post by: Relinquish on May 12, 2009, 10:00:17 PM
Hey, my druid can turn into a raven, can I be 100% immune to damage too?
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Post by: scribjellydonut on May 12, 2009, 11:48:56 PM
Quote from: Relinquish;125491Hey, my druid can turn into a raven, can I be 100% immune to damage too?

Well I dunno really.  I was just throwing the idea out there to open up some discussion about maybe making some familiars more dynamic.  I did this hoping maybe someone would have some insight or ideas about how to impliment this.  Hopefully other people that respond are more helpful and not just a smartass.
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Post by: lovethesuit on May 12, 2009, 11:50:38 PM
Hawk companions are actually a little overpowered IMHO. Nerf them please.
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Post by: ScottyB on May 13, 2009, 12:03:51 AM
If a bird is flying that high then you can't see them on the screen. Therefore, they can't be targeted, and they don't need invulnerability.

If you can see it on your screen, it is where it is. Not a hundred meters above where it seems to be.

I'm not even going to bother moving this to suggestions.
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Post by: The Crimson Magician on May 13, 2009, 12:11:28 AM
May as well just insert a fly command. :D

/c fly a imo
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Post by: Jayde Moon on May 13, 2009, 12:36:27 AM
Quote from: ScottyB;125515If a bird is flying that high then you can't see them on the screen. Therefore, they can't be targeted, and they don't need invulnerability.

If you can see it on your screen, it is where it is. Not a hundred meters above where it seems to be.

I'm not even going to bother moving this to suggestions.

But even if you can't see it on your screen, maybe it should be able to see YOU because it's got eyes like a HAWK, ZOMG.

As far as this one goes, I think that even if the DMs would want to implement something like this, you're opening up a huge can of worms on how to implement it fairly.

Sometimes realism just has to take a back seat to mechanics and balance.
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Post by: lovethesuit on May 13, 2009, 02:58:40 AM
Quote from: The Crimson Magician;125519May as well just insert a fly command. :D

/c fly a imo

This was part of my last app.
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Post by: SkillFocuspwn on May 13, 2009, 12:43:21 PM
Jawl Highwind - Supergirl
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Post by: scribjellydonut on May 13, 2009, 02:20:26 PM
Quote from: ScottyB;125515I'm not even going to bother moving this to suggestions.

It wasn't a suggestion...  usually when I have a suggestion I already have it hashed out how it would work, I was just posting this here for ideas about it.  Maybe I wasn't clear.....
 
A ranger/druid with a hawk companion could take it and allow it to soar(basically scouting) over the lands.  Then the hawk would return and [squawk squawk] letting the ranger know where the danger is or what not... with a druid an even more detailed report could be available.  Anyways, this is impossible due to mechanics since as soon as your little hawk 'flies' near an orc or malar beast, bam-bam - now it's dead.  In reality though an orc or malar beast wouldn't be able to be hit your hawk while it's scouting since it's soaring high overhead.  I think it comes down to a mechanics limitation, but the point of this thread was for suggestions on the matter, not me suggesting anything in particular.
 
Can you script it so companions behave like familiars(maybe only certain companions and not others) that way the ranger/druid PC could possess the hawk.  Then make the hawk invincible to normal damage, but take away its attacks(or at least the damage if you can't take away the attack) and give it something like permanent invisibility, that way the ranger/druid could control the hawk and 'fly' it over any terrain as a scout.  Make it so this only works in outdoor areas and the bird can't enter caverns/indoor areas.  This still wouldn't be ideal since the druid/ranger wouldn't be free to move about while their hawk scouts, but it's better than nothing.  Plus the fact that people could abuse this, but by and large I don't see people taking a hawk for a companion just to annoy people.
 
I was just thinking that It might be good to have familiars with more purpose than either a tank/sneak attacker/trap finder.... maybe something a bit more dynamic is all.
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Post by: Drakill Tannan on May 13, 2009, 02:58:42 PM
Although the above idea would be cooler, i can suggest somethign that is easier to balance:

You could script an ability similar to track, avilable only when your hawk companion is summoned: the companion flies away and then after some time you recive information in a similar way as track and your compaion comes back. Probably would make druids tack too well for the server balance, although it makes sence, maybe it could work as track using the compaions search/spot skills? (the hawk has thouse right?)  that way, en experienced ranger would have little use for it, while a non-tracker ranger or a druid could find it better.

That sounds good IMO.

EDIT: Though this should not be limited to the hawk, other flying compainons/familiars should have this too. Are the raven and bat familiars unchanged? if so, they are good candidates.
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Post by: Oskar Maxon on May 13, 2009, 05:36:36 PM
Drakill brings up a pretty valid point -  how is it different to tracking?
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Post by: Winston Martin on May 13, 2009, 05:48:35 PM
[squawk squawk] letting the ranger know where the danger is or what not...
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Post by: scribjellydonut on May 13, 2009, 07:46:47 PM
Quote from: Oskar Maxon;125675Drakill brings up a pretty valid point - how is it different to tracking?

Well hopefully the bird, once posessed, can go through transitions for long distance scouting... but his idea is a pretty good one.  
 
The difference could be if you release the bird it takes a bit longer but [comes back] with much more accurate positions, as anyone who has used tracking can tell it doesn't always get the type of creature or even pick up the creature at all, let alone the distance to it.  Also from an RP standpoint you can't tell your group "2 geurilla hunters and 3 orc warriors ahead" you should just be saying "footprints of a few orcs"  With the hawk this would be different, so Drakill's suggestion does have merit
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Post by: Jayde Moon on May 13, 2009, 07:58:06 PM
"Kaaaw kaw kaka kaaw!"

"What's that, boy?  Timmy fell down the well?  Four heavily armed orcs and a shaman are fishing him out for dinner?"

Dude, you're not Marc Singer and animal companions aren't familiars.  Most you can get is "Something's got Hawky here spooked."

How the hell is the hawk going to return better information to you than tracking?
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Post by: Oskar Maxon on May 13, 2009, 08:00:39 PM
I think it has been made clear so far that rangers/druids animal companions can not -actually- talk, with their "master" or anyone else?
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Post by: Porkolt on May 13, 2009, 08:33:06 PM
Quote from: Jayde Moon;125713"Kaaaw kaw kaka kaaw!"
 
"What's that, boy? Timmy fell down the well? Four heavily armed orcs and a shaman are fishing him out for dinner?"
 
Dude, you're not Marc Singer and animal companions aren't familiars. Most you can get is "Something's got Hawky here spooked."
 
How the hell is the hawk going to return better information to you than tracking?

Even if animal companions were familiars you still wouldn't be able to talk to them because familiars can't talk either.
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Post by: Underbard on May 13, 2009, 09:36:02 PM
Nevermind.
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Post by: Drakill Tannan on May 14, 2009, 02:00:41 AM
Quote from: Winston Martin;125677[squawk squawk] letting the ranger know where the danger is or what not...

I thought rangers and druids could speak to animals normally? Or do barbarians have hawk companions as well?

Besides even if they couldn't, as you learn to undestand what your pets want you to know after a time.. and considering the animal companion is a closer bond i'd say you could understand it.

But it doesn't matter, rangers and druids can talk to animals
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Post by: DeputyCool on May 14, 2009, 02:58:26 AM
Rangers and Druids can not talk to animals.

At least not on EFU.
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Post by: Jayde Moon on May 14, 2009, 03:04:15 AM
You thought wrong!

Not even in PnP do Rangers and Druids just get the ability to talk to animals.

There is a spell that allows it, afaik.
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Post by: Drakill Tannan on May 14, 2009, 02:30:00 PM
Then it's just the NWN campaign? lol forgive me, my entire knowledge from D&D comes from NWN. But even if not "speak" as if they where humans, they can understand feelings and emotions? Even without talking i would say the druids and rangers should be able understand animals, especifically their animal companion, not as words like "hey there are orcs behind the trees!" but as "sencing there is a threat over the trees, something similar to a human but more savage.." and the druid could figure out the rest. That's what i think anyway.
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Post by: TheImpossibleDream on May 14, 2009, 04:09:19 PM
They can communicate with their animal the same way you can communicate with a dog in real life I'd say!
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Post by: ScottyB on May 14, 2009, 06:10:33 PM
My dog is retarded and unintelligible. RL 3 INT. :(
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Post by: Oskar Maxon on May 14, 2009, 06:52:34 PM
Like master like dog?
[COLOR="Red"]User has been banned for comment. Have a nice day.[/COLOR]

;)
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Post by: N/A on May 14, 2009, 07:45:26 PM
I once met a dog who was afraid of his own barking. I lold.
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Post by: The Crimson Magician on May 14, 2009, 10:26:39 PM
Dogs can smell fear, threatening feelings, and some other sorts of things.

We can too, though it's really in the subconcious. This may or may not be related to the OP. Apologies.
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Post by: scribjellydonut on May 14, 2009, 11:48:22 PM
Quote from: DeputyCool;125794Rangers and Druids can not talk to animals.
 
At least not on EFU.

In the book "Forgotten Realms: Sojourn" the owl Hooter relays information to his master Montolio Debrouchee.  He may not have the vocal cords to 'talk' but he definitely conveys detailed information, probably through some sort of telepathic images.
 
You may have "DM" beside your name but they have the Forgotten Realms logo and the copyright too, so I find them a more authoritative source. :p
 
I know EFU is non-canon, and if the ruling has been made sometime prior to my having joined the server that rangers/druids cannot 'talk' to their animal companions then this should be changed, as it adds a great route to RP for the ranger to have such a bond with his companion.
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Post by: N/A on May 15, 2009, 12:36:28 AM
If you really want to talk to something with four legs, talk to a worg.

You and your furry dreams.
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Post by: Jayde Moon on May 15, 2009, 01:10:12 AM
IT WAS IN A DRIZZIT DOORDEN BOOK!

I DEMAND WE DO IT THAT WAY!

So, the novels don't have detailed rules on how they went about doing what they did.  Montolio may have been a special prestige class of Owl-Talkers or some shat (I can't find a canon character sheet on the guy).  There are literally hundreds of prestige classes, which may or may not have an ability detailed that could correspond to the one used by a character in a book.  The guy was blind and was said to have developed his other senses "to their fullest extent".  Perhaps he just had the blind fight feat.  Perhaps he had some other ability.  Perhaps he had a special prestige class.  Perhaps it was a touch of literary cheez on Salvatore's part to make the guy seem larger than life relative to a drow.

We have rulebooks that we must look to for our inspiration, balance, and concepts, the numbers and abilities of our characters.  According to 3d Ed DnD and 3.5, rangers and druids do NOT have the ability to speak to animals, outside of the spell.

THAT SAID, is it possible for an owl (very intelligent bird) to be in tune with a person so that they can 'communicate' in a sense?  Like the horse that could do math, or some shat?  Sure.  Possible, but improbable.
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Post by: Drakill Tannan on May 15, 2009, 03:04:21 AM
Actually, it got me thinking, if such spell exists why not add it? I mean you haven't said clearly "No because we don't want to" you instead put an exuse such as "rangers can't speak to animals" and "only if there was the spell, but there isn't" If i'm not mitaken detect evil isn't mechanically in NWN, as such no paladin should posibly be able to do so, and yet they can.

Maybe we can add a duid/ranger ability that allows to speak to animals?

Or is it, as i had typed before i edited, that anything that buffs druids is a simply not allowed? In wich case just say it, don't give us false hopes, if it's a plain no i can move to something else.
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Post by: DeputyCool on May 15, 2009, 03:22:39 AM
We're not going to allow Druids/Rangers to converse fluently with animals, it is simply not desireable.

That said, your statement that "anything buffing druids" is not done, is just untrue. We've done a lot to improve druids, including a change implemented just yesterday that makes them at least 10x better.
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Post by: Jayde Moon on May 15, 2009, 03:44:25 AM
ROFL

We'll never get to the forest!  There's all these stupid TREES in the way!
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Post by: Drakill Tannan on May 15, 2009, 02:46:14 PM
Quote from: DeputyCool;125956We're not going to allow Druids/Rangers to converse fluently with animals, it is simply not desireable.

That said, your statement that "anything buffing druids" is not done, is just untrue. We've done a lot to improve druids, including a change implemented just yesterday that makes them at least 10x better.

Don't take the last part seriously, i meant it mostly as a joke, i foghtot to add the smiley though. It's part of my eternal rant for not being able to play a druid properly. (agan, nothing serious)
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Post by: Mort on May 15, 2009, 03:27:25 PM
Similarly, I just fixed the druid/ranger wild bonuses ( speed, hide, ab, spot) bonuses for druid and ranger in the wild.

Additionally, this is efu:a, not Paper D&D, not NWN, not forgotten realms but a modified version of all of those. We do share a lot of properties with the above, but are not the same.

I do think this topic has run its course.