I was uncertain of whether I should place this in the General or Suggestions forum, but after some experiences in-game, I have opted to raise it as something that ought to be documented to some minor degree at the very least.
I have mentioned this in IRC before and it seems there is good reason both for and against having a list of quest restrictions available to players.
One of a few reasons against it is metagaming arising if too much is given away. Along with the server challenge set by Howland regarding completion of all scripted quests. Both of these issues can be avoided though, by withholding anything that comes near spoiler level and not including every single quest in the list (although that could be considered counter productive to the goal.)
My main reason for advocating this is outlined in the scenario below. I am certainly not the first to experience this, nor was this my first time I have come across this type of situation. And it is quite likely I will not be the last one to succumb to this less than desirable outcome.
[INDENT]Recently, I took extensive efforts in organising an adventure that would end up in a quest area we could all join in. Or so I thought. So we went about finding the path there, collected party members and had others join along the way. The issue was, when we got to the end point, it turned out that I was not eligible for the quest thanks to being one level too high.
This was an incredible disappointment for me, because I failed in what I thought would result in a successful exploration adventure AND a reward in the form of quest completion.
Sure the roleplay along the way was nice, but we were seeking to uncover secrets venturing into an even more awesome RP outcome and it all just ended abruptly for me. I provided what buffs I could to the group before they entered without me, making up some lame excuse that the gates were warded against my presence.
The group went through with the quest, but failed, which in large part was due to the lack of my aid. I felt responsible for having led everyone there, resulting in a disappointment for everyone to some degree. So I had my character gift them all something useful, equivalent to what they might find from the quest. Apologising for leading them to a place where I couldn't even join them.
The incidence of the above scenario is why I support the availability of a list of scripted quests, stating the bare essentials while hiding any spoilerish materials. Regardless of this being made available, I have settled on the decision that I as a player simply MUST have a personal list of SQA limits and restrictions... Which is purely OOC knowledge developed over several characters and possibly asking fellow players...
I simply wouldn't want others to undergo such disappointments. Even though I admit the journey of roleplay and organising the group wasn't without its own reward. Just an incredible shame that it did not go as well as it should have in the theories swimming through my mind and the (most likely negative) effect the failure might have on future expedition turnouts![/INDENT]
An example of the bare bones of such a list:
[Alignment can probably be omitted where not an issue.]
QuoteQuest name:[INDENT]The Rise of the Dead[/INDENT]
Level range: [INDENT]1-6[/INDENT]
Party size: [INDENT]2-8[/INDENT]
Alignment restrictions: [INDENT]Chaotic to Lawful: 0 to 100, Evil to Good: 0 to 100[/INDENT]
I agree with this since these are mostly mechanical/balance restrictions rather than in-character ones.
I support this, in theory.
I don't like it personally. Doesn't feel like the gain is worth the loss in giving away all that information in one easy to browse location on the forums. Even if it's all OOC information, it's OOC information you have to travel to the quest giver to find.
The locations aren't revealed in the list I made in general discussion. Only the fully OOC things such as level restrictions. If anything, knowing that there is a quest out there that you havn't done will only promote some more exploration for people if they know it exists -somewhere-.
It's worth mentioning that in extreme cases (like the one above) a DM can allow you to take the quest even if you're not within the level range.
Quote from: VanillaPudding;274765The locations aren't revealed in the list I made in general discussion. Only the fully OOC things such as level restrictions. If anything, knowing that there is a quest out there that you havn't done will only promote some more exploration for people if they know it exists -somewhere-.
That's precisely my point. It told you something about the quest existing, possibly a hint in it's name, and level range. It gives you the knowledge that the quest exists before you even find it.
That's what I don't like.
Equally though Vlaid, veteran players will inevitably know of and do these quests from character to character. Really it only places newer players at a disadvantage having not explored the server and found them on other pc's.
Quote from: tropic;274768It's worth mentioning that in extreme cases (like the one above) a DM can allow you to take the quest even if you're not within the level range.
DMs are not always online. I personally despise pestering DMs for selfish reasons.
To go and lament on IRC etc and attempt to force them to do this, just doesn't seem like a viable option.
The quest challenge is no more FYI.
One more point I forgot to add. I don't know about you folks, but I often receive PMs from our newer players and just the occasional noob (All of whom I do not mind helping out, btw) such as:
"level?"
"lvl?"
"Hello, good sir. What level would be sufficient to join your fine venture?"
Sure we could tell these players to come find me and inquire in-character, then I could OOCly ask them or they could OOCly inform me of their level, and then I can politely deny them or welcome them along. So we do miss out on that kind of interaction, but how often do people do that rather than merely respond with a tell back: "Level 6 min" or something. Just another point to consider.
Having to send someone away IC for an OOC reason is pretty awkward, and I really don't mind if people avoid those situations by sending a tell first.
Not to mention that creating a quest list would do nothing to solve this problem, as players are often very vague about what quest they're going to do (as is mostly appropriate, you often don't know that dark tunnel you're going to explore has this and that monster in it).
Quote from: Porkolt;274813Not to mention that creating a quest list would do nothing to solve this problem, as players are often very vague about what quest they're going to do (as is mostly appropriate, you often don't know that dark tunnel you're going to explore has this and that monster in it).
I am not trying to be pedantic when I pick on this. But to say outright that a list would do
nothing to solve a problem that is fairly broad is well, misinformed.
For one thing, had I the knowledge of the exact level cap in my outlined scenario (which in and of itself is not uncommon), I could have adjusted the plans, or taken the expedition elsewhere.
I could add more to this to suggest that it would actually do something rather than the claimed
nothing, but I do not intend to create flame wars born of incessant nonsense.
Let's stay constructive please.
I have a question about this.
Let's say that this list is complete and public. So, I get invited to go quest with someone. "I know an old cave where some goblins lurk," they tell me. Hearing that, I pull up my trusty quest list, and...
... do nothing, because I don't know which of the many goblin-infested caves we're going to. All I've got to go by are the names of a bunch of quests, and I won't know the name of the quest I'm about to take until I get there, take the quest, and only then will I finally see its name in my quest journal.
So... how exactly is this list going to solve the OP's original problem?
EDIT: I just saw that Porkolt asked the exact same question.
Quote from: River Walker;274915I have a question about this.
Let's say that this list is complete and public. So, I get invited to go quest with someone. "I know an old cave where some goblins lurk," they tell me. Hearing that, I pull up my trusty quest list, and...
... do nothing, because I don't know which of the many goblin-infested caves we're going to. All I've got to go by are the names of a bunch of quests, and I won't know the name of the quest I'm about to take until I get there, take the quest, and only then will I finally see its name in my quest journal.
So... how exactly is this list going to solve the OP's original problem?
EDIT: I just saw that Porkolt asked the exact same question.
That is a valid point.
In my scenario though, my character had been to the location before and I had thought I would be eligible to join along with the party. When we got there though, it turned out I was not, which is a direct result of not having noted the exact quest level limit when I was there last time.
As I have said, I am not certain if a fully public list is desirable, but have resolved on establishing a personal database which is obviously something that cannot be monitored by DMs. So is it fair that I possess all of this OOC knowledge that others do not? It may be, since I have earned it through adventuring around with a series of characters.
The list would just be another OOC reference tool, not something that you should necessarily pick out every single time a quest is involved. And although most times character descriptions of an expedition are ambiguous it isn't usually impossible to understand their intended destination, especially if the location is given.
The introduction of this list might well be a penicillin, removing some of the beneficial qualities of keeping things secret, even if it manages to cure the issue of these in-game disappointments, that much seems apparent.
This has happened to me 50000 times:
I join a quest in character, only to find out I didn't remember the actual min-max levels for that quest. And neither did anyone else.
Happens a million trillion times. Every day. A list would help forgetful veterans.
IMO, a quest list (//%22http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63820%22) is a good idea...
Everybody metagames OOC info (me included), from which type of PC to create to go with that awesome new perk, to not going on certain quests without certain types of PC classes (I love the, "we could use somebody good with locks" type sendings<Can you say metagaming knowing there are locked chests in that quest?). Hearing 'FOIG' gets old after a while for things that you know other players are metagaming into each PC they create (summoning/recipes/quest locations and difficulty/etc) and you cant do it because you haven't FOIG yet. But once we do of course we all do the same thing, meta OOC info.. And DM's can watch all they want, unless they see a 2nd level PC creating something outrageous, how would they know? Rhetorical question, they wouldn't.
So unless you're willing to force peeps to create complete random rolled PC's from stats to class to perk, then what's the big deal about the most basic of quest info out there that can be had by right-clickin on a description box? It's not like it's some big secret recipe to summon undead giants ffs.
Personally I'd rather be able to hit every quest in game once than hit the same couple quest over and over again because I didnt find a quest until I was to high a level to take it or some such sillyness.
I don't have one anymore, but I didn't make much a secret that I have had these in the past for both efu and efu:a. Most of the time the Veterans know these by heart and do not need lists, which is basically why I don't bother writing them down anymore. If I don't recall what the quests levels are I send [tells] to a couple people asking them or ask irc.
I do believe the best in character response to the OP's issues regarding such events would be to explore to the quest, talk to the quest giver, and THEN turn around and gather up a group to delve in. However that can be potentially lethal and time consuming if the primary aim was to have some fun breaking into a quest and getting some loot. I've done it both ways, and certainly found myself barred from quests I was leading before.
Anyway I still have this from old EFU. Figure it serves my point without being spoilerish. I will note, that this was not 100% finished, and various ones were changed/removed/added even since this was made--but that should be pointless considering nearly all of these no longer exist.
Quote from: "Upper Quests"Operative Syrov "Animatron Parts" - Spellguard Tower - QUEST Level Any
Josephine - Upper Stairs - QUEST Level 1-2, Party Size 1
Cookies Delivery - Last Stand - QUEST Level 1-3, Party Size 1
Greena Fears "Beetle Harvest" - NW Upper Insect Farm - QUEST Level 1-3, Party Size 1
Sanctuary Engineer - Dunwarren Ruins - QUEST Level 2-3, Party Size 1-8
Norma Walders - Upper Market - QUEST Level 2-3, Party Size 1
Clerk Myrta Cleidt - Town Hall - QUEST Level 2-3, Party Size 1
Davino - Residential District - QUEST Level 2-3, Party Size 1
Officer Barkley - Spellguard Tower - QUEST - Level 2-3, Party Size 1
Andrew Llewelkaden - Residences - QUEST Level 2-3, Party Size 1-8
Corporal Hlutar - Town Hall - QUEST Level 2-3, Party Size 2-8
Lucibella Matterhiem - Matterheim's furniture - QUEST Level 2-4, Party Size 2-8
Krovus - SE Upper - QUEST Level 2-4, Party Size 1 - (Disabled)
Apprentice Aagiskeryn'iqua - Spellguard Tower - QUEST Level 2-4, Party Size 2-5
Jilaco Ironreed - Last Stand - QUEST Level 2-4, Party Size 3-7
Retired Watchman - Mauseluem - QUEST Level 2-4, Party Size 2-8
Xander Kefton "Boggs" - Last Stand - QUEST Level 2-4, Party Size 1-8
Orphan Child - Dunwarren Ruins - QUEST Level 2-5, Party Size 2-8
Bilby - Last Stand - QUEST Level 2-5, Party Size 1
Spellguard Agent - Spellguard Ruins - QUEST Level 2-5, Party Size 2-8
Ambassador Aurelius Natch - Shadow Tribe - QUEST Level 3-5, Party Size 1
Hans Rothe Meat - Upper Market - QUEST Level 2-7
Kayne Balesmaan - Spellguard Tower - QUEST Level 2-7, Party Size 3-8
Aaminah Ahava "Clowns" - Southern Upper - QUEST Level 4-8, Party Size 3-8
Cowardly Shield Dwarf - Last Stand - QUEST Level 4-9, Party Size2-8
Armand Waters "Hook Horrors" - Society Ordered Mind - QUEST Level 4-9, Party Size 3-8
Gnomish Temple - Dunwarren Ruins -
Quote from: "Underdark Quests"Beetle Infestation - Grunstuble Mines - QUEST Level 2-4, Party Size 1-8
Thomas Alqvin - Thomas' Shoppe - QUEST Level 2-6, Party Size 2-8 (Disabled)
Troglodites - Shores Dark Lake - QUEST Level 3-6, Party Size 2-8
Abbatahkt Mur - Fort Mur - QUEST Level 2-7
Grizabella - Grizabella's cave - QUEST Level 2-7, Party Size 1 (Druid Only)
Mushroom Grove - Peaceful Cave - QUEST Level 2-7, Party Size 1-8
Gnoll Camp - Grunstuble Mines - QUEST Level 3-7, Party Size 3-8
Gnoll Chef - Gnoll Camp - QUEST Level 3-7, Party Size 3-8
Intryzz - Sleeping Pyrimo Inn - QUEST Level 3-7, Party Size 3-8 (Non-good Only)
Urdlen Gnomes - Grunstuble Mines - QUEST Level 4-7, Party Size 3-8
Vrourk Ungor "Orges" - Canal Gate - QUEST Level 4-8, Party Size 3-8
Seeker Scout "Quaggoths" - Dark Shore Central - QUEST Level 4-8, Party Size 3-8
Tomb of Jubal - The Deep Stream - QUEST Level 4-8, Party Size 2-10
Lieutenant Valsre Delorme - Upper Gate - QUEST Level 5-8, Party Size 3-8
Seeker Hauksen "Goblin Fortress" - High Road - QUEST Level 3-9, Party Size 3-8
Icy Cavern - Frozen Wasteland - QUEST Level 5-9, Party Size 3-8
"Trolls" - Low Road - QUEST Level 5-9, Party Size 3-8
Dlurry Pickshard - Sleeping Pyrimo Inn - QUEST Level 3-10, Party Size 2-8
Krixka - Sslal'teesh Docks - QUEST Level 3-10, Party Size 3-10
Asargano Shard "Medusa" - Fort Mur Interior - QUEST Level 3-10, Party Size 3-8
Grimmart Mur "Orogs" - Fort Mur Interior - QUEST Level 3-10, Party Size 3-8
Grey Circle Druid - Grey Druid Circle - QUEST Level 5-10, Party Size 3-10
Priest Krazel - Windy Canyon - QUEST Level 7-10, Party Size 3-8
Drow Caravan - Trade Route - QUEST Level 6-11, Party Size 3-8
Seer - Shoppe of Divination - QUEST Level 6-11, Party Size 3-8
Elrebril Holencilaben - Fort Mur Interior - QUEST Level 8-12, Party Size 4-8 (Disabled)
The Beholder Quest - Terrifying Cavern - QUEST Level 7-12, Party Size 3-8
Stone Giants (Unknown Questgiver Location
Quote from: "Lower Quests"Adelia Tyrell "Quiz" - Shrine of the Ascension - QUEST Level All (once)
Big Rat - Big Hole - QUEST Level 1-2, Party Size 1-8
Salvagable Scrap Metal - Canal Waters - QUEST Level 2-4, Party Size 1
Wally - Lower - QUEST Level 2-4, Party Size 1-8
Strange Tunnels - Narrow Tunnels - QUEST Level 2-4, Party Size 1-8
Merchants Assistant - Canal Ward - QUEST Level 2-4, Party Size 2-8
Bill Brassgut - Lower - QUEST Level 2-4, Party Size 2-8
Pomporo the Portly - Lower - QUEST Level 2-5, Party Size 3-8
Mad Tom - Sewer Town - QUEST Level 2-5, Party Size 1
Mord Koyeske - Crone - QUEST Level 2-5, Party Size 2-8
Mary - Lower - QUEST Level 2-5, Party Size 2-8
Nervous Merchant - Lower - QUEST Level 2-5, Party Size 2-8
Merlinda the Chosen Hunter - Pump House - QUEST Level 2-6, Party Size 3-8
Mrs. Cole (Portal quest) - Lower - QUEST Level 3-6, Party Size 3-8
Tomb of Arga the Destroyer - Sewer - QUEST Level 3-6, Party Size 3-8
Acolyte Derber - Hoaran Temple - QUEST Level 3-7, Party Size 3-8
Melgano Arbuckle - Sewer Town - QUEST Level 3-7, Party Size 3-8
Adelia Tyrell - Shrine of the Ascension - QUEST Level 3-7, Party Size 3-8
Steam Pipes "Flying Chosen" - Sewers - QUEST Level 4-8, Party Size 2-8
Ragrigriappi Leadowfinklefies - Sewer Town - QUEST Level 5-11, Party Size 3-8
So many memories. So much lost. :(
I've been thinking about this one and decided I am supportive. I've been here for five years and done tons of quests and STILL get messed up. There are several times I've gathered a quest group and headed out only to find that either the level cap has changed (e.g. Wolves) or the minimum number of PCs has changed (e.g. Shadow canyon). A definitive list would certainly be helpful.
Enjoy.
http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63931
The list still requires for you to find them IG though.