Feedback!

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

I am leaning in agreement with Letsplayforfun, but then, I can exploit a lot with the current administration is going on!

[Mort]

Being back from 2-week intensive weeks of final, I can say I've neglected efu. It was really hardcore! But vacations give me a bit of a breather to work on building and running events.

A lot of what I'm doing is behind the scene trying to address concerns such as problems figuring out the settings/factions, Guidance, etc. doing pc writeups/aid to help become oriented, etc. I'm retouching a lot of NPC conversation to provide a tour and hook you up into the dynamic of the server early on. I can understand that there is probably inequalities in plot involvement and that some timezone may be favored, but I think it's fairly easy *at the moment* to find a hook should you make an effort to.

[PanamaLane]

I think letsplayforfun brought up some good points. I also agree with Mort that a lot of the points should also be directed at we players. We should try to elevate our game in those areas like religion, character and server development. It's always essentially been in our PC hands to create plots and intrigue, to make enemies and friends, to be the foundation that the world is built upon. Not every plot need come from a DM, in fact, the really good ones have come from PC's time and time again.

As far as criticisms are concerned, I think what the server really needs is more DM's. The DM's that are active are amazing, but its simply impossible to budget your time to the entire player base. We don't need DM's to enjoy ourselves, mind you, but it absolutely does make the game more fun for everyone.

[The Beggar]

Active plots help to move things along, and active interesting factions are the foundation to a lot of player activity. When players are not bound together by some goal that others oppose, the game grows to feel stale because it has lost a dynamic aspect of what makes PWs so much fun. IMO it seems when I log in there are many players that RP, but many are not in factions, or have loosely bound together to form intermittent player factions. This tells me many that are playing may not have an interest in the current factions.

Interesting and fun factions are the foundation of forming dynamic conflict in a PW. They recruit players due to their nature, and promote activity.

Plots built around or using those factions in one way or another, or better, that polarize existing factions on one side or another of the plot promote server wide interest, interaction, and conflict.

Plots alone may be spectacular, but without the support of a multiple active factions, die out quickly because the character base shifts too quickly. (ie, if a player is not in or involved with a faction, more likely to move on from his dead character to another concept. His actions in any active plot die with him, and stall the plot).

These would be my suggestions.

[Gippy]

I agree that having more DMs would be good, but it's important that they're the right ones. The difference a DM makes on the server to help out with PvP + run small spice, or just watch people to give them small rewards is really massive.

[Sternhund]

I'm glad to see activity pick up during this Winter break, now that many of us are back from finals season (including myself!). I do think we should make a general introductory post to new players, explaining the setting and faction with greater clarity in order to address letsplayforfun's criticisms, and attract more newer players.

[Fish]

Guys don't be so quick to throw off "this feedback is not relevent because it is only applicable to you".  That is a foolish action to perform.  All feedback is useful.  People saying "well I didn't find this" or any other comment about missing information can be used to find spots where there is a lack of clarity.

Beware of old player syndrome.  They won't leave their comfort zone because it's always been like that.  If someone brings up a point where there is lack of understanding, consider that the explanations there are lacking and need further fleshing out.  If some things that are obvious are being missed, consider them too complicated and need simplifying.

Also remember some players may need a little herding to get involved.  Not every player is super-proactive and those that are more shy should not be left out because they are not forcing themselves to get involved.  Sometimes that just doesn't make sense to them.  

Query random players, "what do you think about X plot" in reference to rumors posts and other "assumed IC knowledge".  Consider that their reactions can help gague how much more fleshing is missing in the module to portray changes and perspectives between plots.  Don't just wait here for feedback, though this is a good start.  Go out and find people, doesn't matter if you Do or Don't know them.  I'd say Better if you don't know them.  If your rarer players know whats going on, you're doing a good job.

There's some feedback on getting feedback.

[Kotenku]

EFUA isn't a democracy (or a dictatorship).
It's more like a big circlejerk. Everybody's after the same thing (Enjoyment, or "pleasure") and we'll all get there eventually. Some get their rocks off helping as many people as they can, others a select few. The DMs don't have a role any different from everyone else's, they're just after enjoyment too. Thing is, even in a circlejerk, somebody will have to finish in first, and somebody will have to finish last.

(PS, didn't read any of the thread before this. lawl, probably completely off.)

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST.)


Note from Sternhund: Kotenku was not actually banned.

[Cruzel]

Sort of like what kotenku said ; While EFU is a great server, it's like anything else ; There are some people that invariably excel more than others - starting plots, factions, whatever else. In turn, these people get priority when it comes to handing out DM quests and whatever else plots and loot, presenting more risks and chances for them to die, but if successful, ending up quite better off, be it supplies or some form of storyling information, etc.


TBH this has also sort of irked me, while it's not directly an advantage, because all this spice and attention is definately much risker, if they survive they do usually get the benefit of loot, supplies, or plot related shenanigans.

On the flip side, the 'less fortunate'  - that is to say, the less proactive and involving players have the advantage of less overall risk, as they are pitted mostly against standard AI in their relentless quest smashing that they engage in to keep up with the above group, or because they are just bored because they are left out of the above group's plots/quests, or the quests/plots of others.

This is the way EFU works, and most people seem content for it to be the way. The first group continues to rock out, the  second latches on to join in their plots, etc. That's really just how things go.


While I wouldn't expect the DM's to divert all their attention away from the people who ARE rocking out as they are now; Little shoves to get random balls rolling for the 'other guys' would really go a long way for getting the 'other guys' to start plots/factions /otehr involving junk of their own.

Example; (Not a complaint) I don't usually get a lot of (in game) DM attention. Like a year ago, some pvp happened in the red skull temple and my PC was left for dead to the NPC spirits, who was saved by some random PC of Canzahs.  Later on while doing an unrelated quest involving undead with my obligatory cliche kobold minion , a  DM spiced the quest and gave my PC the task of bringing the two who beat him, to the very spot, to give to the spirits.
This quest then ushed my (all too short lived) amassing of my kobold army for that purpose, as well as other server domination goals.

Stuff like that, even a small interjection and nudge - You don't need to necessarily hold someone's hand to get a ball rolling and start plots and stuff like that. After that event I don't think I saw a DM IG for months (unrelated PVP aside)  and never again related to that plot, but my (surviving) minion(s) and I had somewhat of a purpose and new goals, which gave us at least a week or two of RP before my PC bit it for summoning a vampire on some unsuspecting powerquesters.  We definately need more character specific spice, imo. Massive server plots are fun, but random interjections no matter how small, make the world seem so much more alive, and immersive. And tbh, that kind of stuff is way better than any scripted quest.

[lovethesuit]

Since I've been back, in less than a week I've had 3 DM quests, two of which where I was a major player. What amazes me is that when EfU:A started, there were concerns about there not being enough DM attention. I think that what we have now is a server where the opening night jitters are gone and we're all ready to do some really epic stuff. This Wild Orc plot, for example, or several of the other plots that Mort or Stardog are working on (that I know about, at least). I had a best case scenario in mind when I returned to EfU after my exams, and lately I think I've exceeded it.

But occasionally there's a lull around midnight EST and for around 6 hours afterwards. The only thing I can think of is making so more easily accessible things to do. If there's only 3-4 players on the server, what can we do so we're not all standing around, or in my case too scared to go exploring alone because of how dangerous the island is? Not a problem, I think, but perhaps a gap that could be filled.

[Oroborous]

I'd almost post this anonymously, but figure its not worth the effort since its easy to look someone up--all the same, I doubt it'll be well recieved.

I think the idea of "DM spice" is mostly to try to whack people. The last three times I was involved in a DM event, the players just gave up--not because they don't like challenges, I know I do and I know the players involved thrive on challenges.

The "events" though looked mostly like throwing overwhelming mob after mob at the players until they gave up. No bonus for surviving, loot that honestly seemed mediocore--and this is what I'd stress most:

Absolutely no inkling that the DM cared to hear an ounce of feedback. I didn't make a fuss over it, but I'm hearing the concern around the server that some DM events are growing more and more disproportiantely difficult without real rewards. They feel more aimed at, and I say this with all the experience of a guy whose DM'ed a lot and seen a good deal, killing players than anything else.

When people duck out of DM events half-way through because of stuff like this, I expect there's something to look at.

Some players still won't mind, including myself, ultimately we keep playing despite what looks like heavy-handedness because we do trust the DMs mean well and perhaps had a bad day, or just aren't really paying attention to how far the line between a "challenge" and a "decimation" has been crossed. Its tough to see that.

I do know more than a few players are growing increasingly frustrated though that for the longest time, there was no DM attention.

Then when it arrived, it took the form of total decimations with at least a few deaths every time. On one quest, I died once--another PC died three times--and one PC actually just left the quest entirely. On another quest, between a party of five people, we had six deaths (two guys died twice) in ten minutes.

That's not challenging, and honestly not fun either. I like a challenge, I like to feel like I could survive it and come out rewarded for doing so. I give up now on spiced quests because the rewards aren't there, its just spice that some people are feeling is being used as a way to whiddle down potion stockpiles.

I'm bringing this up here because the DMs asked for feedback. I tried to talk to the DMs about these quests when they were run, and never got response--and I gave up on IRC since I don't get one their either.

Hopefully, this is just something to think about. Players, despite the whole you can't win NWN thing, do want to feel like they can 'win' and lately, I've felt like having a DM show up means I'm going to come out worse off than I started.

This isn't just PvM either, but to be frank, almost any experience involving a DM. I've been insulted before on these forums by the DMs for saying this (the DM who insulted me, never even bothered to talk to me about it despite efforts to contact him directly and through other DMs: its one of the reasons I think I've honestly been playing less and less--even more so than the lack of real plots and mysteries to work on solving), but I figure its worth reminding people that we all come here to have fun and I see players growing frustrated and we do talk.

When I see a chance to try to air this openly, I'll take it. I'm sure I'll get flamed, insulted, or mocked for saying it openly--but at least let it be said I'm not part of the group that *only* complains in backchannels and PMs through IRC.

[PanamaLane]

To the DM's credit, I hope this thread is designed to address some of those concerns Oro. I hope that they do take your criticism clearly and try to make changes. I think one thing to add to this is that in the past when players have raised concerns a lot of the time nothing comes of it. So, try to make that effort guys. As wong as you may feel that PC is, I think one of your roles as a DM is to make them feel better as opposed to worse.

[Metro_Pack]

I am out for blood and the rush of crushing your escapism with the iron fist of reality.

It's true!

[Calculor]

That is MY line, sir.

[TheRingBearer]

When I see a chance to try to air this openly, I'll take it. I'm sure I'll get flamed, insulted, or mocked for saying it openly--but at least let it be said I'm not part of the group that *only* complains in backchannels and PMs through IRC.

I think this is a very important and valid point. TBH.