Wordless PVP

[Aethereal]

Really? I did that several times with Turg the Corrupt and encountered largely funny and considered RP every time. *scratches head* The good RP is out there if you fish for it. Maybe it is partly about encouraging it rather than just shrugging and believing it isn't there.

Hehehe. I do remember meeting that one, I honestly thought it was one of those bounty NPCs too. And then hearing about how he saved an elf from being mugged, which resulted in him appearing as the 'good guy.'

[Random_White_Guy]

Strictly speaking I don't think an assassin should take the courtesy to say hello.

Granted my favorite work in my failed attempts at assassins was Blackout + Corpse-steal, sometimes the RP is what leads up to the demise as many have said so far.

While it's fun to think about being beat down, dragged across ymph, waking up in a sadistic lair, and ritually sacrificed...Assassins leaping from the shadows to slit your throat is pretty much sticking true to your character. Wordless is sometimes warranted.

Sometimes the IC situation doesn't allow gloating, interrogation, or dallying about. Usually most PvP is followed by a large squad potentially of others seconds away from coming to cut you down.

Not saying every PvP should be "LOL DAI", but a little courtesy goes a long way.

And typically it's the aggressors that are shown the least courtesy.

[wcsherry]

TOH -

Of course, everyone reacts differently to different scenarios. This does not mean either case is right or wrong. How we handle individual interactions between PC's is up to us, and ultimately a judgement call everyone is welcome to make on their own.

My example was meant to illustrate that wordless roleplay works both ways - between hunter and hunted. As you mentioned, there are likely other examples where things work differently, I am just working with my personal experiences, and those that I've seen in game on the client as well.

You are free to do as you please in game. Just remember, an assault from invisibility or stealth is a valid tactic as long as players are not breaking any rules. The tactic is neither 'lame' nor unsportsman-like, but should be used on a case-by-case basis.

[Aethereal]

And typically it's the aggressors that are shown the least courtesy.

Definitely. It just seems hard wired into people though, and for the right reasons in terms of real life. Would you really want a murderer on the loose?

Some concessions for story can be made, but it comes back to the main point in the rest of the quoted post. Which is to say, if the situation is right the means can be justified.

Assassin PCs should expect they will be killed if they fail and it is their intention to kill. Everyone is going to assume that a wordless invis-ganks represent the intent to kill. You can always apply your creativity as well, I think we all know of the method of earning a PC's trust and luring them out somewhere dark and quiet by now. It's a rite on EFU, I dare say, you've not played EFU until you've been murdered that way.

[The Old Hack]

Hehehe. I do remember meeting that one, I honestly thought it was one of those bounty NPCs too. And then hearing about how he saved an elf from being mugged, which resulted in him appearing as the 'good guy.'

You take that back! I wasn't saving the elf, I was mugging the mugger! >.>


As to my earlier response, I'd like to apologise; I suspect I came across a little rudely and all I wanted to say was that you do meet good RP as well and that I try to stay focused on that. (It may also be a matter of approach. I never actually had Turg try to ambush a whole crowd of people, he was too cowardly for that -- two people at a time was the most he felt like attempting.)

[granny]

Strictly speaking I don't think an assassin should take the courtesy to say hello.

maybe not, but I guess that a sociopath that seems to delight themselves about creating panic into their victim would be quite interesting.

like the guy that sends letters and stalks his prey for days before finishing them.

... not because they are professionals, but because they are maniacs!

[XS3]

The issue I have with invis ganking, and the reason I consider it unfair and unsportsmanlike, is that there is always, and let me stress always, a more enjoyable, creative, fair, imaginative alternative.

NWN is based on shared storytelling. We all add a piece of a story we all contribute to create. Invis ganking, on the other hand, has little interest in what the other player is experiencing. I have been told RP and story developments can come from invis ganking, but I do not agree. I cannot imagine a single instance where such RP and story developments couldn't be obtain through more enjoyable means, that ends up adding even more to the rivalry being told. The biggest mistake a NWN player can do is to figure out the story he wants to tell and believe that it will happen as he has imagined it. What makes NWN spectacular is that the outcome is the result of all of us influencing each other's story. But anyone performing an invis gank is not interested in letting the other player have his own tale entwined with his. Invis gank is the most efficient way to obtain the story development one desires, without caring of what the opposing part can offer to the table. You give up roleplay, and the chance to further tell your rivalry (because the moment of the confrontation is the peak of a rivalry), in order to aim for "the win". Yes you will roleplay after that, yes you will develop the story after that, but at your own conditions, from a position of strength that you have used invis ganking to obtain. You are not sharing storytelling anymore. You are forcing your storytelling on someone else. That is why not killing someone after an invis gank doesn't make it any more right. The idea behind the invis gank is wrong, because it is a shortcut to an outcome we desire, no matter what our fellow players add to the table. What this outcome eventually is, doesn't in any way excuse what we have done.

The fact our fellow players may not show us the same kind of consideration we are reserving them is also no solid ground to justify an invis ganking. Only by setting the bar high, can one improve. The bandit one is again a good example. There are hundreds of ways to handle a mugging or an ambush, that can be enormously more enjoyable. I'll write one, because it involves that kind of thinking outside the box, past the mechanic nwn offers us, that I find makes our game epic.
Imagine, instead of just jumping on a group from invisibility, to follow said group unseen. Imagine to listen to their conversations, understand the relationships between them. If you really want to make it more than just a mugging, if you want to enjoy it and let your targets enjoy it too, you could follow these guys for a while, or pay someone to gather data for you. Until you eventually understand the people in the group, until you find out who is the weakest link, that element the others greatly care about. And again, instead if jumping on them fully buffed and wtfpwn them, you sneak up to your chosen target, appear, and put a knife at his/her throat.

Two things can happen:
1) Your fellow players understand to look past the game mechanics, and portray the fantasy world in their minds, and that means they play along. You threaten them, hinting at private informations that you should not be privy to. You make them understand you know how important the person under your dagger is. You tell them of that time one of them almost sacrificed his life to save your target. You have doubt sneak into their minds, you toy with them, and the life in your hands, that they so much care about. And then you ask for money. But really, you probably won't, because I'm sure at this stage there will be something much more interesting you want from them. This does tell a rivalry (instead of an invis ganking that adds nothing), because every single character can react to this event. How will this influence the personality and goals of your target? Will he be afraid of you, avoid any confrontation with you at any cost, show signs of paranoia, afraid that someone else may threaten his life in the same way? Or will he come at you with all his might, afraid but willing to take his revenge, struggling to remain strong and not willing to let such experience influence his life? And how will those around him react? How will they advice him? And how will they react themselves? Will they understand that someone has been gathering data on them? But who? How can they find him out? A trap? Or finding someone to spy whoever may be spying on you? How many awesome sessions of roleplay can come from such a simple encounter? How much depth can characters display when faced with these experiences?

2) Your fellow players know that you cannot really harm anyone, so they decide to buff up, not acknowledge the situation they are in (past the mechanic of nwn) and kick the hell out of you. GG.
But should this happen, who is really to blame? Who should reconsider his gamestyle?


Or you could invis gank them, and miss out on point 1) wonderful opportunities. You probably would have more chances to win. But in truth, you would have lost.

(Before anyone says it, this goes both way. We all must be able to imagine this world with our creativity and show fairness to our fellow players. So, in my example, you should realistically choose your target with wisdom and consideration)

[Guttersnipe]

I've seen people try things like the above. It near always results with the targets buffing up and beating down the bandit. The only hostage sorts of situations I've ever seen work are when the hostage isn't present, and even then it's rare.

The thing is, you simply can't ignore the mechanics of the situation, players will always measure their chances by them because this is still a computer game. While this might not always be an ideal truth, it's still what the truth is and as players people need to enact their schemes within the realms of what will realistically occur. Anything else will just lead to unrealistic expectations and much frustration.

People always seem to stress over bandits, or other similar sorts of violent PCs, but the EfU truth is as follows. The PCs in the most danger aren't those likely to be victims, it's those who are the aggressors. Bandit PCs are most often killed long before they FD anyone, they get set upon by much greater numbers for a few muggings, dragged to town and executed by whatever law is in place. The players involved in the warband don't ever consider that they're taking part in the FD of a PC who's never killed anyone. They feel strength and safety in numbers, and would likely be very upset if their aggressive reactionary behavior resulted in their PCs getting FDed in return for it.

This is why the players of bandit PCs take precautions for the sake of being bandits. When they don't they wind up dead...and fast. If we want to see banditry as a part of EfU then we as players need to accept the reality of how it works, and allow the story to develop from both sides of the equation. But in my experience, the most stylish side of this near always falls on the side of the bandit, and yet the bandit is the one who most often gets stressed about and worried over as being somehow just out to "win."

[Caster13]

my favorite werewolf aswell...
we should build a shrine for her

Died too soon :(

[granny]

xs3, I love you, marry me!

even most of the scenaries you pictured not being possible in many situations, I love when they are.

let's concept a couple of enemies to hate each others until the end of the times? ^^

btw, going in what gutter is saying... I would love to see things being softened towards the bandits. we could have some jails, less executions and more ways to spread bandity around EFU. you guys are too good into safeguarding law and destroying everything that is evil that is not a NPC.

... oh, only now I realised that EFU is like the soviet union from the joke. everything is upside down. in soviet efu the good guy is mecyless and the bad guy spares your life.

[Caster13]

Bit of a chicken or egg conundrum.

Fun RP during PvP requires trust in your opponent's sportsmanship. But trust in your opponent's sportsmanship requires RP during PvP.

I say break the cycle and don't be afraid to be more mechanically vulnerable to play a more convincing aggressor or (would-be) victim.

[The Old Hack]

Good roleplay can only occur if you trust your fellow players enough to give them a chance to do it. In that regard, trust is vital and therefore I personally prefer to err on the side of trust. Unfortunately I am not flawless; if someone screws me over in spite of that trust I no longer feel very much motivated to show that particular character much more trust. :/

I must respectfully disagree with XS3. The invis gank is not always bad. For one thing, it adds tension and caution to play when you know it can happen, for another, when used correctly it can be a splendid way to escalate tensions between characters. Oh, and for a third -- the satisfaction of managing to turn the tables on an ambusher is ENORMOUS. I have only rarely done this but it has happened for me a couple times or three.

One of the times I was invis ganked and subsequently killed made me extremely mad when it happened but in retrospect I feel that it was so well done that it has actually added to my enjoyment of the server. This was because it was done respectfully (though at the time I was green enough to not appreciate it), because it added to the risk factor of my play, and not least because it did add to server roleplay! This was a major villain at the time and many characters were angered by my character's death.

Most of all, the response was realistic and done in consequence to ingame and forum roleplay. My character had publicly and not so publicly defied this villain and the response was not incommensurate with the involved RP. Lastly, it was a SINGLE ganker who could have been spotted if I had had See Invis ready (I didn't, at the time I was like level 5 from massive level loss and it had run out when it happened.) The attack took guts and gall and was done in the middle of a crowd of PCs and NPCs; had the attacker slipped up, he would have died.

Of course there is bad invis ganking. There is bad roleplay of all sorts! But condemning invis ganking wholesale is to me akin to condemning all quiet roleplaying in town as 'stagnant and boring' or 'sitting around talking about the weather.' Quiet town roleplaying is often very satisfying for me and on several occasions I have seen such 'quiet roleplaying' result in alliances shifting and fates altered. The same goes for good invis ganks.

~tOH.

[sylvyrdragon]

Not all attacks from 'unseen', is a Gank.  Let's set that straight.

A Gank (in my mind) is when a player or group of players OOC'ly plan the 'hit'.

A random attack from 'unseen' is just that.  I wish more people would see the difference here.  

A Gank is NEVER a good thing, as it is an OOC action, it can be done in stealth, invis, or just walking up and hitting the person that is the target.  

At least this is how I see them in my mind.

I think the part in the OP that is missing is :

attacked by someone I don't know. These attacks are out of the blue from invisible opponents, fully buffed, which I have never even met. During the PvP there's not a single emote. The only talking happens when my PC lies in the ground.

I get that Bandit PC's exist.  I get that they put themselves at great risk to play a Bandit.  I get that what ever their reason behind the Bandit is usually well thought out.  But, you know going in just what it is you are facing.  You get caught you get dead.  But, does that make it OK to just no RP attack anyone you see?  

By doing that you are not giving the others a chance to respond, and I'd bet there are a few that would respond in the Bandits favor.  I've had many characters that would have just handed over what ever it was they wanted.. but instead we have to go through this dance of .. you use what you have.. I try to use what I have.  Then you take what you think you deserve because of what "I made you use".  

I'm the first one to admit that I am mechanically challenged.  I have never won a PvP, and most players know this.  There have even been times that I was directly targeted for this reason... they knew they could win.  (Yes I was told this OOC'ly.. no I will not bring up names)  Trust me, it's loads of fun being the loot monkey for those who are Mechanically superior. (feel the sarcasm)

But, if you don't give me a chance to play my character, or to react other than "lays on the ground bleeding".. I can almost guarantee that I will go out of my way to avoid you from then on.  Is it wrong?  Maybe.  Could I be missing out on some really great characters.. yup.  Guess it's just something I'll have to live with though.

I agree there are times for the unseen attack.  But for me, there is never a reason to forgo RP. This is a Roleplay server after all, I want just the smash and grab, I'll play WoW.

[granny]

You know what I like the most about everything in this thread?

The discussion. We talk, we try to understand each others. We care about it. And we work for making it better.

That's why I am with you, EFU.

[Cerberus]

I have yet to see my excuse so I'll toss it in the hat...

Sometimes it isn't always about Wordless RP/PvP. Sometimes it's about how fast and well peeps type. I've actually been in a PvP where the mugger made an attempt at RP by saying "Entertain me or pay me 200 gold!" before I thought of and could type a response, he said "Not fast enough!" and attacked. Though he left little time to respond (maybe on purpose), it still doesn't mean I wasn't making an attempt as I was fighting him with half a line of text that never got completed or sent.

I've seen players who sit and play bejeweled and other games while waiting for replies to RP because they can type fast and the player they are talking to types slowly. Sometimes it's simply a matter of typing ability and has nothing to do with intentional wordless PvP. Though the initial attack may be wordless PvP (for whatever reason).