Bandit Balancing

[Garem]

This is mostly for DMs but requires some very minor spoilers, so please consider not reading unless you've encountered a very, very strong bandit and are pretty sure you've found out in-game.

[hide]There are some very powerful bandits out there - which is great - but there is a particular type that seems exceedingly overpowered, with multiple one-shot-kill lethal attacks with exceedingly high DCs.

That's probably not something that should be floating in relatively lowbie areas, with multiple other baddies with other strong capabilities.

Moreover, if having lots of Phantasmal Killers and high level fireballs and such are okay... alright, I hear you. Challenges are good. But at least let them drop some useful loot because,I mean damn. These guys are brutal and nearly killed a full mid-level party about halfway buffed up.

Happy to give more details in Discord if this is too abstract! Trying to keep from talking too much about potential spoilers.[/hide]

[Nazey]

Agree.  Honestly, I'm pretty peeved.  It felt like a completely unavoidable, unpredictable death.  I wasn't expecting a DC 22 phantasmal killer to the face turning the corner in a lowbie area.  I generally don't think save or death is fun to have in low levels at all, but imo the DC should at least be lowered to something a 4-6 character with moderate saves can pass.

[Howlando]

Well -

Without specifics, I'm not actually sure what you're talking about. There is, to my knowledge, one spawn of the named bandits in the Scraggleways in an alleyway far from the normal traveled part. There is, in this spawn, a possibility of a wizard spawning that can cast PhK (in my testing I am getting DC 19, but you seem specific about DC 22, so perhaps there's something else going on). Protection from alignment, a level 1 spell, or very inexpensive potion, makes you completely immune to this spell. Otherwise you just have to beat 1 of 2 saves.

I strongly reject the notion that in EFU we have "lowbie" areas outside of Ring 100 that should be safe. I strongly reject the idea that save or die is totally unbalanced (great axe cries are also save or die for some concepts).

We are throwing you in an insane death labyrinth where you'll run into all kinds of potential content... that is part of the appeal of EFU for me and most of those who play here I think. The Scraggleways is essentially the one area of all Ring 99 where you are indeed liable to potentially be jumped by genuinely dangerous bandits, I don't think that this is a bad thing.

You're welcome to describe the specifics to me on Discord, it may well be that a situation is a little out of whack. I have already adjusted spawns a lot and am happy to tweak more if there is something genuinely out of control.

[Garem]

Yep, sounds like it's the place and NPC.

Fair enough re: EFU is hard. My point isn't to see it completely toned down, but getting no reward from an NPC that's more powerful than many "named champions" with very good gear is rough.

This particular NPC was a serious beast. It's not JUST the Save or Die. I think it dispelled at least one of the three that died. I saw at least two (lesser?) dispels fire off. Another PC was hit with 2 or 3 fireballs (more than that were cast) while hasted. It's just so capable of creating a deathspiral that PCs don't have the time to respond effectively. On top of that, when the nuclear arsenal had all been launched, the NPC's AC was sky-high so melee fighting it was rough (and to be fair, at that point it was out of spells and much less dangerous).

I'm not sure if I got hit with dispel or not, but it seemed to blast through my PFE twice with back to back Hold Person. The PFE spell might simply have faded, but it was from a friendly "Sorcerer" so I don't think that's likely as it hadn't been that long and they give a very good duration on casting. Or maybe the sorcerer gave the wrong spell version? Or the NPC enemy isn't set as Evil? Worth checking out, as it's possible something is amiss.

A previously unmentioned point now that I've mulled this a bit more - there's not a good indicator of just how dangerous this NPC is. If some NPC is called a "Gravewater Terror" you have a good idea that it's a mean SOB. With a "Gravewater Water-hauler" nearby, you get the useful context that one is probably scary, but the other probably is not - even if the character model is the same.  This NPC and his large cohort are all names that don't give a clear indication that they're easily capable of a TPK (and mostly the one NPC in question). Maybe adding "Ruthless" or "Brutal" to the front of "Chucklesnort Wifflepisser" or whatever the crazy new gangnames are would be helpful. If our PCs are spending enough time fighting alleyway bandits, it stands to reason they might be able to ID the really scary ones from the wimps (a nice touch for those low-level bandit types) and have the good sense to leave them alone.

[Anonymous Lemur]

I've encountered this particular spawn a few times. There is a very clear indicator of how powerful these bandits are compared to other bandits. Their uniforms. Unlike the bandits you typically see about these guys wear quite "fancy" gear. The mage typically casts imp invis or firebrand immediately which should be taken as a big "oh shit" and be cause of drinking clarity of pfa.

They also have distinct names marking them as members of a particularly fearsome gang. Really it's mostly just, as I mentioned earlier, a matter of looking at the npc's and their clean, flashy uniforms to tell they aren't your typical rust clad grunts. Don't think I've ever seen them in 99, but if they do appear there it's quite rare and not entirely without merit!

[DYBIL]

I've seen them in the Scraggleways and 98, but never in 99. Sometimes the best solution to some encounters in EfU is to just run away. The "New Player Tips" thing that was in the new character area of v4 even had a tip that said something exactly to this effect.

[bobofwestoregonusa]

I've never seen PhK bandits in ring 99 but I have seen the occasional bandit spawn that comes with an NPC that will cast hold person while his associates, who are significantly stronger than the NPCs spawning in the quests surrounding the area or in the ring beyond, pummel you into bits. I've seen some rather nasty stuff spawn right in the commons nearly kill me or now much more rarely kill me.

This generally happens less when you get used to running into stuff like this as well, or when you build up a character to a point when they can either fight or escape some of this stuff more easily.