Barbarian Ear-Shattering Rage Furor

[Richørd]

This is very closely related to the thread "Barbarian fear furor" by Pandip.

If any changes are made to the Terrifying Rage furor I'd suggest applying the same exact changes to this furor. It is very similar in nature and can also result in hillariously one sided "Press To Win" situations.


EDIT: I'd like to add two things with any names and portraits of other people cut out to underline this issue.

Picture 1 : The combat log of me loosing a single dice roll (during which Protection from Alignment did nothing). The numbers speak for themselves, even more so considering that the barbarian only had to drink a few potions and press a button to then pummel my character down with their 21 AB while using Power Attack.



Picture 2 : Another barbarian voicing his opinion.



To me it just looks like barbarians are currently the best melee class when it comes to an open melee and they will remain to be that by a large margin, even should both shout furors end up getting adjusted.

[Astegard]

This is used less and less of a problem as you can still drink clarity while dazed to remove it.  It comes with an AOE sonic burst to compensate for that.

[Ernesto]

Barbs are imba on several levels. I feel like the vanilla class was actually alright, could have used a small buff, but someone went completly overboard.

[Poolson]

Hi. I'm the player in this reference, I'd be happy to break down the math on what transpired.

Ear-Piercing Shout is similar to Terrifying Rage in its scaling, but is different in that it does 2DX sonic damage, where X is barbarian levels. If you fail your saves, it can deafen and daze you. Deafen is not particularly worrisome unless you are a caster (and have even less room to worry about, because your will saves will be even more superior) and daze is such a non-issue, as one potion of clarity will pull you out of this situation. You can drink it while dazed, it isn't a stun. This is pretty much a dead shout in PVP, in that every target you fight will have endure elements up and sonic is apart of endure elements.

You did not have PFA up against me. I know you didn't.

Secondly, what occurred was nothing exceptional. I did not drink 'a few potions' and went to town. I used my entire rotation. Bull's Strength, Bloodfrenzy, Aid, Divine Favor, Bless and Haste, while using a weapon I both have a WF for and having magic weapon on it. You were struck with a premeditated attack, it wasn't me going straight from neutral to absurd.

Even if we did away with furors and made barbarians flat 4 STR/4 CON /2 WILL SAVES/-2 AC, this changes the math very little.

4 with BAB 9, +2 from bull's strength, +1 from bloodfrenzy, +2 from rage, makes a grand total of +5, making the modifier +9, instead of +10. It would be a difference of +1 to hit and +1 damage.

Potions make all the difference in the world. Barbarian furors less so.

Thirdly, the 'player's complaint' is YOUR complaint. You sent me that whisper, after our encounter. That is dishonest and you're filling empty chairs to garner support for your call to nerf barbarians.

Fourthly, Barbarians are good in that they have a window in which they perform optimally, before they become fighters without feats and taunt. Fighters have more consistent output and Rangers even have better, consistent AB/damage. Combine both Fighter and Ranger with FE Humans and you'll have a situation much like Barbarian, but a constant +4 damage, before counting something like power attack.

You could also play almost anything else with access to wands and scrolls.

Barbarians are not the problem.

[Richørd]

Hi. I'm the player in this reference, I'd be happy to break down the math on what transpired.

Ear-Piercing Shout is similar to Terrifying Rage in its scaling, but is different in that it does 2DX sonic damage, where X is barbarian levels. If you fail your saves, it can deafen and daze you. Deafen is not particularly worrisome unless you are a caster (and have even less room to worry about, because your will saves will be even more superior) and daze is such a non-issue, as one potion of clarity will pull you out of this situation. You can drink it while dazed, it isn't a stun. This is pretty much a dead shout in PVP, in that every target you fight will have endure elements up and sonic is apart of endure elements.

You did not have PFA up against me. I know you didn't.

Secondly, what occurred was nothing exceptional. I did not drink 'a few potions' and went to town. I used my entire rotation. Bull's Strength, Bloodfrenzy, Aid, Divine Favor, Bless and Haste, while using a weapon I both have a WF for and having magic weapon on it. You were struck with a premeditated attack, it wasn't me going straight from neutral to absurd.

Even if we did away with furors and made barbarians flat 4 STR/4 CON /2 WILL SAVES/-2 AC, this changes the math very little.

4 with BAB 9, +2 from bull's strength, +1 from bloodfrenzy, +2 from rage, makes a grand total of +5, making the modifier +9, instead of +10. It would be a difference of +1 to hit and +1 damage.

Potions make all the difference in the world. Barbarian furors less so.

Thirdly, the 'player's complaint' is YOUR complaint. You sent me that whisper, after our encounter. That is dishonest and you're filling empty chairs to garner support for your call to nerf barbarians.

Fourthly, Barbarians are good in that they have a window in which they perform optimally, before they become fighters without feats and taunt. Fighters have more consistent output and Rangers even have better, consistent AB/damage. Combine both Fighter and Ranger with FE Humans and you'll have a situation much like Barbarian, but a constant +4 damage, before counting something like power attack.

You could also play almost anything else with access to wands and scrolls.

Barbarians are not the problem.

1. I like to give players some courtesy as in to not give away their AB numbers and all that by deliberately censoring their names from any logs, even removing portraits. You are giving these informations away yourself now.

2. To say that it is a dead shout in PvP only due to Endure Elements is false. Look at that combat log, I took 0 damage from it. The damage is not the issue. The issue is it being a free action that cancelled my entire action economy and took me a round to even open my inventory and find my clarity potion (Yes, yes, I made the single mistake of not hotkeying it). At that point you have already landed massive blows and the PvP is over. GG.

3. I did use PfA against Chaos due to two other players being there, one of them who I know is a chaotic alignment. If your barbarian is a neutral alignment then that's rather "meta" according to the same barbarian player that I quoted there.

4. "Was nothing exceptional". Of course not, there was just a Dispensary going on. But imagine if this was something more serious and a character's story came to an end because you managed to press whatever hotkey you use for your free action.

5. Nobody is saying to remove furors entirely. I will agree that barbs will go back to being rather snoozy without them.

6. No, nonsense. Potions make a big difference, that part is true. But everyone has potions (except for Ascetics but we don't talk about those right here). Don't dismiss the barbarian furors as "less so" just to prove your point. The fact that barbs get them as a free action on top of their rage ON TOP of the fact that they're a pure AB class with the highest hit die of all base classes combined with their DI for up to two minutes straight at level 8 makes them crazy good. And didn't you delevel yourself to go back to wearing medium armor after barbarians couldn't use furors while wearing heavy armor any longer? So they do matter quite a lot.

7. Again, nonsense. You can accuse me all you want of bullshitting but I don't need to lie. Send me a PM on Discord and I can tell you there what player shares my opinion and said that exact thing. Lance Van Klyke , my PCs name at the time, wouldn't even fit in that black bar. And let me just say right here, there are plenty of people that do not like the shout furors ever since their sudden rise to popularity.

8. People have one major issue with barbs right now and that is that they have "Press-To-Win" buttons. What most wish for is just for there to be a proper chance to counterplay instead of loosing a single safe and being up to the barb's mercy while being feared / dazed.


Please don't stray from the main topic in the future just because you feel personally attacked due to people rightfully calling out muscle waifus screaming their way to victory at the press of a button.

[Dredi]

Daze may be clarity-able, but that is, at best, still 1 round of being flat footed against a reasonably high DC (A non cleric druid is still only gonna have a 50/50 chance of succeeding there..). - as an instant action.

And as we can see here, one round is sometimes all that is necessary.

Barbarian isnt the issue, but these Furors are clearly superior

[Poolson]

Hi. I'm the player in this reference, I'd be happy to break down the math on what transpired.

Ear-Piercing Shout is similar to Terrifying Rage in its scaling, but is different in that it does 2DX sonic damage, where X is barbarian levels. If you fail your saves, it can deafen and daze you. Deafen is not particularly worrisome unless you are a caster (and have even less room to worry about, because your will saves will be even more superior) and daze is such a non-issue, as one potion of clarity will pull you out of this situation. You can drink it while dazed, it isn't a stun. This is pretty much a dead shout in PVP, in that every target you fight will have endure elements up and sonic is apart of endure elements.

You did not have PFA up against me. I know you didn't.

Secondly, what occurred was nothing exceptional. I did not drink 'a few potions' and went to town. I used my entire rotation. Bull's Strength, Bloodfrenzy, Aid, Divine Favor, Bless and Haste, while using a weapon I both have a WF for and having magic weapon on it. You were struck with a premeditated attack, it wasn't me going straight from neutral to absurd.

Even if we did away with furors and made barbarians flat 4 STR/4 CON /2 WILL SAVES/-2 AC, this changes the math very little.

4 with BAB 9, +2 from bull's strength, +1 from bloodfrenzy, +2 from rage, makes a grand total of +5, making the modifier +9, instead of +10. It would be a difference of +1 to hit and +1 damage.

Potions make all the difference in the world. Barbarian furors less so.

Thirdly, the 'player's complaint' is YOUR complaint. You sent me that whisper, after our encounter. That is dishonest and you're filling empty chairs to garner support for your call to nerf barbarians.

Fourthly, Barbarians are good in that they have a window in which they perform optimally, before they become fighters without feats and taunt. Fighters have more consistent output and Rangers even have better, consistent AB/damage. Combine both Fighter and Ranger with FE Humans and you'll have a situation much like Barbarian, but a constant +4 damage, before counting something like power attack.

You could also play almost anything else with access to wands and scrolls.

Barbarians are not the problem.

1. I like to give players some courtesy as in to not give away their AB numbers and all that by deliberately censoring their names from any logs, even removing portraits. You are giving these informations away yourself now.

2. To say that it is a dead shout in PvP only due to Endure Elements is false. Look at that combat log, I took 0 damage from it. The damage is not the issue. The issue is it being a free action that cancelled my entire action economy and took me a round to even open my inventory and find my clarity potion (Yes, yes, I made the single mistake of not hotkeying it). At that point you have already landed massive blows and the PvP is over. GG.

3. I did use PfA against Chaos due to two other players being there, one of them who I know is a chaotic alignment. If your barbarian is a neutral alignment then that's rather "meta" according to the same barbarian player that I quoted there.

4. "Was nothing exceptional". Of course not, there was just a Dispensary going on. But imagine if this was something more serious and a character's story came to an end because you managed to press whatever hotkey you use for your free action.

5. Nobody is saying to remove furors entirely. I will agree that barbs will go back to being rather snoozy without them.

6. No, nonsense. Potions make a big difference, that part is true. But everyone has potions (except for Ascetics but we don't talk about those right here). Don't dismiss the barbarian furors as "less so" just to prove your point. The fact that barbs get them as a free action on top of their rage ON TOP of the fact that they're a pure AB class with the highest hit die of all base classes combined with their DI for up to two minutes straight at level 8 makes them crazy good. And didn't you delevel yourself to go back to wearing medium armor after barbarians couldn't use furors while wearing heavy armor any longer? So they do matter quite a lot.

7. Again, nonsense. You can accuse me all you want of bullshitting but I don't need to lie. Send me a PM on Discord and I can tell you there what player shares my opinion and said that exact thing. Lance Van Klyke , my PCs name at the time, wouldn't even fit in that black bar. And let me just say right here, there are plenty of people that do not like the shout furors ever since their sudden rise to popularity.

8. People have one major issue with barbs right now and that is that they have "Press-To-Win" buttons. What most wish for is just for there to be a proper chance to counterplay instead of loosing a single safe and being up to the barb's mercy while being feared / dazed.


Please don't stray from the main topic in the future just because you feel personally attacked due to people rightfully calling out muscle waifus screaming their way to victory at the press of a button.

1: This is not information I am trying to hide.

2: It's still just a daze. This was in an environment where you were fully prepared. That you didn't drink clarity after falling victim to it  twice is on you. You knew it was coming.

3: Stuff it. I'm sorry, really, but you of all people do not get to criticize how I roleplay my character and express their beliefs and outlooks via their alignment.

4:  Okay..? Of all the anticlimatic ways for a character to come to an abrupt end, you worry about it coming from a barbarian? Not a fully buffed caster, or rogue from stealth? Surprises are common in EFU. These things just sometimes happen.

5:  I literally just gave you hard, solid math on how the removal of the furor would not change that outcome by much. As for why I took the re-level: I like flavor to my characters. I like having all these bells and whistles. I do not need them, I only enjoy their company. The numbers do not change, if I were to remove all of the furors from the equation. Their rage duration is not the problem, either. They'd get the same uptime, if they had vanilla rage access, like 3 rages a day.

6: I am fully aware of peoples' problems with Barbarian. We have this tiring argument every other day. But the math checks out. I am not blind to the other side of the argument and in fact I dwell on it quite frequently. But from where I stand, your problems would not cease if they did away with these furors. You would still hate Barbarian for its one simple function: hit things.

[Richørd]

Won't be responding here further. Dredi put what I'd say perfectly and more compact than I ever would've.
Essentially I do not need to "win" an argument here, there is none to be had anymore.

I made the suggestion, it may or may not be considered especially considering how HARD the terrifying shout furor got nerfed. Wow.

[Ernesto]

It's not about hating barbarians. I love barbarians. But I'd just like to know what you guys consider balanced versus broken/imba.

+10ish strength as a free action is what I consider imba(on top of every other buffs the vanilla class received). What about you? +14, +18? Where is your limit. Just wondering...