Author Topic: Nerf orb spells  (Read 331 times)

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Damien

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on: July 01, 2020, 06:39:33 AM
They do a crazy amount of damage, pretty much destroy any low hp classes and require no touch attacks and cannot be saved against. I died to 3 on 90hp cleric with resist elementals up for example.

Either add half damage from saving against it, or touch attack please.



Astegard

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on: July 01, 2020, 08:06:35 AM
I agree these should either have touch or a reflex save for half.
These are currently basically ranged combust for more damage on top of having a fort save or stun/slow/blind.



Egon the Monkey

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on: July 01, 2020, 08:42:39 AM
I'd agree. With a touch attack and no SR, things like Displacement and DEX AC worked against them, but SR did not. Making them effective as boss-killers and to hurt L9 Clerics with Spell Resistance up.  It was good against rare defences and  weaker against common defences, making it situational. It was a good spell for Wizards to use hurt things that were stronger than them. The issue was you could basically eliminate the weakness of needing a touch attack by throwing a True Strike out first. So it was bad against buffed targets but good in ganks and boss fights.

Now it's weak against rare defences, but tears right through all common ones. Because they have no save for half, they are a foolproof weapon that requires no feat investment.  Making it a great spell for all Wizards to use to oneshot PCs that are lower level than them. Which is especially annoying if you are a Monk or Rogue getting hit by one of these. No Reflex, no evasion, no DEX AC. It's another case where the only defence is "16 Con Dwarven Barbarian, for Hitpoints".



Bacon_Cheese_Burger

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on: July 01, 2020, 09:08:38 AM
They are lvl 4 spells, and casters have few lvl 4 spells. They should be powerfull.  Have you tried drinking a protection from elements potion?



Egon the Monkey

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on: July 01, 2020, 09:29:11 AM
No, because I don't have one in this example fight. PfEle potions are expensive and you don't keep them up all day just in case. The OP had 90HP and L2 elemental protection up.

L4 Spells are meant to be powerful, yes. That is why having a counter to the powerful thing is important. Otherwise games turn into "attacker always wins".

As an evocator, your main weakness is "Someone with evasion is going to mess me up".  You want your powerful abilities to have risk involved, and decision making on who is worth targeting. This way, anti-spell abilities are also powerful.

If you can inflict 8d6 damage, no save, it doesn't matter who you're shooting that at, they get hurt and it's entirely down to your roll. If it has a Reflex save for half, then Saves, Spellcraft and Evasion come into play, With a touch attack, you have to worry about DEX AC and concealment, and you might straight up miss vs anyone.

Also saves force you to have high INT/CHA and/or SF to be effective. Currently Orbs are amazing off looted scrolls, as it doesn't matter that scrolls have low DC.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 09:33:14 AM by Egon the Monkey »



Toroic

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on: July 01, 2020, 12:20:06 PM
Some of you seem to be under the impression that wizards are supposed to be poor duelists.  This is false.

Wizards, when given time to prepare for your strategy specifically and buff before combat (like in a duel) should absolutely mop the floor with you.  That is the tradeoff for having the worst hp and AC and needing to spend thousands of gold hunting down scrolls.

Orb spells are a wizard’s “swing for the fences” because you’re spending a 4th circle spell to do 3rd circle damage reliably.  If someone can survive the initial burst, then they win the duel.

Dispensary is where melee characters shine, as a series of many small fights stretching over 10+ minutes with people joining late from stealth is exactly where wizards are weakest.

They picked the exact right spell to use on your fully buffed potentially in platemail cleric, and won.  There are many spells they could’ve chosen that would’ve let you win easily.



Ser Shroom

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on: July 01, 2020, 01:41:32 PM
Speaking from a PvE perspective, the touch attack was really the only defence rogues had against these spells, as their fort saves are generally so trash they can't make the save vs secondary effect and there is no evasion opportunity to mitigate the damage. Encountering this spell being spammed on a certain scripted quest with a rogue just felt like a death sentence.

I do think returning the touch attack requirement would make it a reasonably well balanced spell.



Electrohydra

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on: July 01, 2020, 02:36:00 PM
As the person who basically started this by winning a few PvPs with orb spam, I'll drop my 2c...

Yes, orbs are very strong now. But.

I do wonder how much it's "orbs are too strong" and how much it's just a new part of the PvP meta that people still haven't adapted to. The veterans have been PvP'ing for 10 years and barely ever had to deal with orbs, and their usual PvP strategies need adapting.

The damage on orbs is not out of line with similar options. It does the same damage as missile storm (But is countered by a greater insulation pot instead of a shield pot). It does roughly the same damage as Empowered Combust, which has been meta for as long as I've played. Orb > Orb > Orb does the same damage as True Strike > Empowered Scorching Ray > Empowered Scorching Ray.

I'd also advise against changing too much because of Alexandra. She's a mimic, and mimic are weird and not representative of the average caster. Orb change has been in the game for months now. Nobody thought it was OP until like 3 days ago. Give people time to adapt to the new trick. I don't think shaking up the PvP meta a bit is a bad thing.

If it does need to be changed back though, I'd hope they are made a little stronger then their old version. I don't think I've seen a single orb being cast in my over 1 year of playing with the old orbs, they felt a little -too- niche.



Damien

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on: July 01, 2020, 03:04:16 PM
No one cares about your rando pc Electrohydra.

I'm referring too it now because, as mentioned, my PC with 90hp and resist elementals died to it, and I've seen a full BAB level 10 die to it on a certain quest too. The duel just reminded me to post something. I don't see anything regarding adaption required here. Except maybe have greater elemental protection up always and over 110hp.

You're doing on average 30 damage, which means 60dmg with haste. Anyone who takes 60 damage in a single round will be forced to heal, thereby taking another 60 dmg the next round.  Which for those bad at maths probably means you won the pvp, and is the reason people are using/abusing it now, because it used to require a touch attack.

The comment that you are somehow sacrificing your level 4 slot is a non starter, too. Aside from II and icestorm, most other spells are garbage so it's a massive advantage it exists.

To give a further example, it also does more single target damage than firebrand, a level 5 spell, which has a reflex save.



Toroic

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on: July 01, 2020, 03:43:08 PM
No one cares about your rando pc Electrohydra.

I'm referring too it now because, as mentioned, my PC with 90hp and resist elementals died to it, and I've seen a full BAB level 10 die to it on a certain quest too. The duel just reminded me to post something. I don't see anything regarding adaption required here. Except maybe have greater elemental protection up always and over 110hp.

You're doing on average 30 damage, which means 60dmg with haste. Anyone who takes 60 damage in a single round will be forced to heal, thereby taking another 60 dmg the next round.  Which for those bad at maths probably means you won the pvp, and is the reason people are using/abusing it now, because it used to require a touch attack.

The comment that you are somehow sacrificing your level 4 slot is a non starter, too. Aside from II and icestorm, most other spells are garbage so it's a massive advantage it exists.

To give a further example, it also does more single target damage than firebrand, a level 5 spell, which has a reflex save.

Your first line is an exceptionally disrespectful way to refer to another player.

By my math, if you have protection from elements up that’ll reduce the first round damage to 20.  That puts your cleric at 70 hp on average.  You can heal, use a protection from elements, silence, etc, but let’s say you choose to use another protection from elements.

They have expended all their 4th level spells (assuming level 9 wizard) in two rounds and you have 50 hp left having spent only 2 level 3 slots to their 4 level 4 slots.  Assuming you’re also hasted, you could easily heal with spells and ward against elements and be at full hp with more spell slots left.

If you’re fighting a wizard in a duel you should not be using resist elements or endure elements as a cleric.  You have access to stronger options.

Protection from elements is not an absurd thing to stock up on for fighters either.  It can be brewed and people buy displacement and haste all the time.



SamB123

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on: July 01, 2020, 03:48:18 PM
There's a lot of salt here.


Counter to Orb spells: Potions of PfEle. It's a hard counter. You should be able to do some damage by the time your PfEle is broken through.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 03:50:26 PM by SamB123 »
Padernig de Gaulle, Thaumaturge of House Nephezar



Damien

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on: July 01, 2020, 03:59:19 PM
Meh..anyone who is self absorbed enough to think a post is about them, and then suggest server mechanics should anchor around them should have their bubble burst immediately.

And I said on average. Characters do not on average have resist elemental up, except pvp cautious clerics and rangers. And for reference I was ganked and hit by 80dmg in the first round, so a bit unlucky, but my level 9 buffed cleric shouldn't be a benchmark. People aren't all level 9 walking around buffed.

Regarding the rest of your post, I can also see your using the "well you could do this" logic of your argument, which isn't constructive at all. Use averages and I've already mentioned it easily dealt with characters which were above average in level and hp and were buffed (see cleric level 9, ranger/harper scout level 10...).  Though yes, well done, we could all play a barb and walk around with greater elemental protection up, but if anything by proof of need you are validating the rationale for nerfing, so thanks I guess.

And I've no salt for this particular death anyway, if that refers to me.



Moonlighter

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on: July 01, 2020, 04:14:12 PM
These used to check for SR or have a touch attack, right? What happened?



Fuzz

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on: July 01, 2020, 04:14:21 PM
The whole point of Orbs is that they give you a damage option which ISN'T completely shot down by a reflex save and evasion.

PfE exists in potion form and anyone can get it. It's a hard counter to Orbs.



Ser Shroom

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on: July 01, 2020, 04:14:56 PM
Getting back to the original suggestion:-

I would just highlight that there are secondary effects associated with these spells. Including one spell that stunlocks on a failed fort save. I still believe without the touch attack that these orb spells are unfair on lower hp, lower fort classes (e.g. rogues, bards) who have a higher than average touch AC.

It's one thing to shrug your shoulders after a death and say 'well it's just unfortunate I didn't make that 50/50 touch attack roll'  rather than having to concede 'well I died because I didn't roll a near impossible 18 or better on that fort save'.

I am saying all this in a PvE perspective because certainly in a PvP one any wizard or sorcerer worth their salt will just cast true strike first, so they aren't going to lose out on their rogue deleting spell with this modest change in my opinion.