Reintroduce variety to L9-10 quests

[Egon the Monkey]

When I came back to EfU, I was impressed by the wider variety of quests, as it meant we had a lot of variety in what we got to do. Especially as the level range on most quests was much wider than in back in C3. This was great as it meant you had a wide choice of what to do with a large team, so questing was really fun and varied. I've noticed a trend since I joined that quests are having level caps reduced, but nothing's replacing them. All the new quests seem to be <L9. So we have incredible variety going from 3-6, a good range of 3-8s, then a big reliance on hunting seams for the long quests or scouring ring 95 for random lairs. Getting L9 can feel like a bit of a poisoned chalice, as if you need supplies or cash, you can't just do the nearest fun quest.

This is benefiting close knit crush squads to the detriment of anyone who got beyond L8 more casually. Quests like Ash Alley and Trash Island are nice short resupply runs for those of us without access to faction stores. They're don't have spectacular loot but they don't have spectacular Fuck You enemies either. Having them as high level quests was valuable as it meant high level PCs could restock on basic supplies for ringrunning or schemes. Everything doesn't need to be EPIC all the time just because you avoided dying.

3-8 is fun. There's lots of quests that let you take risks and try wacky builds, because the enemies aren't minmaxed. Trying to do Storm's Eye or the 94 quests on a suboptimal team is a quick road to the Fugue. And although a caster PC can buff their lower level mates then go for a Wizardly Pipe-Smoking Break outside the quest, it's not exactly exciting. If you hit L9 on a mixed team, you're now likely to spend a lot of time either vetoing quests, carrying the lower level PCs through a high-risk quest, or sitting around outside waiting for the 3-8s to finish.

I've spent a lot of time recently scouting 95 for quests that 1-2 of the party then have to sit out.  It's a Not-Questing Train! Furthermore, nerfing the level range on 95 quests makes the 95 challenge even more of a grind when you need to do it. And it's not going to stop optimal teams grinding up supplies because they'll be off 3-manning Ghylherl and dunking on the Fire Seam anyway.  Sometimes I just want to have a short session of EfU.  Log in, do some RP and exploring, kick over a few monsters' sandcastles, then log off. It's why I was playing an alt while I was L10. Because unless I found a random, or we were doing ringrunning today, I rarely had much to do. Then I lost L10 and suddenly had money and the ability to go out on quests again.  This is also the reason I doubt I'd app for L11 on anything other than a caster class, Merchant Lord Rogue etc. Because the character would likely go bankrupt.

Suggestions:
More short, high-level quests, please. Either by rolling back a few level-range nerfs or writing some short quests. For example, Orphanage is 100% perfect. It's short, fun, and surprisingly dangerous if you underestimate it, without relying on cheesy tricks like dispel spamming or mega-crits.

One of the really good things about Trash Island is a lot of the loot is good-quality weapons and armour. Stuff that is valuable when you need a decent weapon or armour, but doesn't have great resale potential compared to its weight. So the effective payout is much higher for under-equipped PCs. Biasing loot to be equipment, 0.5lb single use devices etc, is one way to make these quests less profitable for highly-equipped PCs. Because they can't just add to their Fat Stacks Of Haste if it doesn't drop Haste potions.

[TheShadow]

I will comment that you can find a lot of higher level capped quests deeper in the rings...

Similar to traveling to the Lowerdark, it is a bit of a journey, but simply done.

As far as 99-95, i know a lot of the quest variety is found in explorables such as sewer goblins, the old arbiter quest, etc etc.

[putrid_plum]

I don't think L10 or L11 PCs should be spamming really short quests.  If they do quest it should be something hard and fitting for someone of the caliber. 

I do like the newer higher end content more than the old quests shoved back into the module from the last 4 chapters.

I have limited ring running but I did see some other content deeper in.

[parthenos]

yes, more quests please

spam that shit

[Egon the Monkey]

I will comment that you can find a lot of higher level capped quests deeper in the rings...

Yes, I know. My point is that these are hardcore quests that require you to go deeper into the rings. As DMs often say, "ringrunning isn't for everyone". The ones shortly after 95 especially are long and nasty and will take you apart if you mess up. They are not the sort of fairly chill quest that your entire faction (including the rookies) can do together to learn teamwork and get some RP. 

Yes, there's a number of random spawning quests. However, I've noticed a trend for all the reliable ones that suit pick-up teams to get the level cap reduced. Everything in 95. Trash Island. Ash Alley.

Trash Island used to be great as you'd always hear about it and  it was "Hooray we can all go do something" not "scour the server in the hope of a suitable quest". Sometimes I just want an hour of two of light RP and questing  with the whole gang, and that's okay. I can get that with a 3-8 team but if someone makes it to 9? Well they get to spend a bunch of time on the subs bench now. Yesterday we scouted 95 to a chorus of NOPE as it turned out the only quest that spawned (Mudfeast) had been nerfed down to 3-8 recently and a chunk of the team had to bow out..

spam that shit

Sarcasm aside, I'm suggesting this because I got tired of 'spamming that shit'. A L9 in the team means you spam the same things until you're sick of them, and you have to pass up fun quests as a group, or have people sit outside not participating. To stop some quests being spammable, they could even be set up more like Water Gardens, so you only get one from the list in a reset.

I don't think L10 or L11 PCs should be spamming really short quests.  If they do quest it should be something hard and fitting for someone of the caliber.

Why? "Long" and "hard" only go inexorably together in dick jokes, not quest design  :P.   They're spamming really long quests instead. That's the reason Trolls was spammed so hard. Unless you have got a wage perk, you're brewing or you're merchanting, you need to do quests or randoms to resupply. Also, quests are fun. I'll say that again. QUESTS ARE FUN :). The server policy discourages alts, but if you want to keep enjoying the new content, I guess you need to play short-burn PCs or alts. And we have some really good short, challenging quests.

You might have one L9-10 badass PC in your faction but the rest are newer, or suboptimal builds, or low on supplies. So they're not going to be keen on taking on the Foothills with you. This is what I mean about level range nerfing not affecting optimal crush teams.  They'll all be happy to go hit up Zif-Uroti with you. At the early levels, there's an all you can eat buffet of Fun. You can choose what to do, and easily play short sessions. At high levels, you need to worry if you can handle the quests in your range, or grumble that nothing spawned. So you keep saying no to fun, and sitting around doing nothing because the right PCs for your schemes/rivalries/ringrunning are not on.

[HeWhoSeeks]

If you're level 10, you should be at that point on the server where you can leverage other things for supply.

RwG has written about this several times. If you're doing max 8-9 quests, those quests SHOULD be challenging without an established PC helping them crush it.
Not all quests deeper in the rings are extremely long slugfests, and most of these 'difficult quests' can be done by level 7-8 groups that are willing to use even minimal supply without being crushbot optimized groups.

EDIT: The same thing happens with quest trains and having too many people, forcing them to sit out. Usually as the one who sits out, it's tough shit. Not everything is fair and the rewards from trash island are ridiculously good for the challenge posed. A lot of the quests have pretty damn good rewards. Make use of the cure minor trinkets, etc. It sucks and can be a pain but you'll find your supply goes a lot further.

[Random_White_Guy]

Just wanted to weigh in since my name was mentioned I did want to say - Nothing says you can't quest at higher levels, but there's definitely a "latch on" thing that happens way too often on EFU and takes all the challenge/risk/etc out of questing on EFU. EFU was always about a balance of risk vs reward and in EFUV particularly it feels like that has been thrown out in favor of optimizing quests, bringing 8 people on every quest, not doing something if it's deemed costly, or etc.

One thing you've embraced more than anyone Egon has been the Scarabi idea and that weird place and your wild and crazy theories and giving people tours, and while I know the feeling is "Sometimes you just want to quest", if a PC gets high enough level it's not hard to say "Hey this is Prospector Steve, a local Alchemist is asking me for some Orc Teeth from the seam of Gnasharim, if anyone's interested!"

New PCs who have never been to Gnasharim/hostile seams or hunting for explorables or anything can explore and find more of the world, hostile spawns can be faced, there's all the same RP of questing- Without the hustle of "NO MY SPELLS ARE GONNA RUN OUT RUN" it's just less guaranteed XP and supplies as an incentive for PCs to RP together.

The story though can be the same.

Also hope it's not too much a spoiler to say but a Max level 11 quest has been added in Ring 98, static, every reset.

[Abala]

There are plenty of max 9 quests, and a good number of max 10/11 quests, far more than ANY other chapter of EFU.

I don't particularly think short high level quests are all that good.

We're always looking to add additional content but I am very skeptical of this. You can do things other than quest.

[Pigadig]

You could try looking for the new quests? That would be an exciting adventure! Imagine the RP that could occur from that!

[Egon the Monkey]

There seem to be a few big assumptions about how I play. Might as well clear that up. Pretty much everything suggested in this thread is something I am already doing (I just don't do a lot of sendings or posts about it). I'm not complaining "OH NO TEH NERF, ALL BROKEN", I'm trying to say "This change was a mild annoyance to me, I wonder if it's worse for someone not doing all these things too"?

You can do things other than quest.

I was literally posting this for that reason. I love the shorter quests because I can get a bit of entertaining and slightly profitable monster-thumping without dedicating the entire of my EFU session to it. Or I can join in on a quest without bothering I'll need to log in a hurry.  This is also why I love random lairs. And to be honest, I don't see a major difference between a random lair and a random short 4-11 quest except that "One has a questgiver and lets multiple people do it".

EFU was always about a balance of risk vs reward

This. This is my point. What unexpectedly carving a lot of quests down to L8 recently has done is to upset that balance somewhat. It was a surprise move, and I wanted to open discussion about that. I'm not saying there's nothing to do past L8 by any means, but I am saying there was a sudden trend to reduce level ranges for a lot of quests.
Running into surprise NOPE on several quests in a row was rather frustrating.

You could try looking for the new quests?

I am, and I'm looking forward to them! I spend much more of my time on EfU looking for explorables or lore (or talking about that) than I do questing, to the point my character's current nemesis is "A ridiculous DC door in a random-spawning area" :P. So chances are I'll find them on one of my exciting adventures anyhow. I tend to be one of the people who digs out quest locations for our group anyway.

I do like how a lot of the random quests are higher-level, as it means you are less inclined to find quests you can't do.

Make use of the cure minor trinkets, etc. It sucks and can be a pain but you'll find your supply goes a lot further.

I'm playing a guy with a typical heal skill in the 30s and +3 per tick. I don't need to use those things, they waste actions. Combined with Apothecary Rogue perk, I get a lot of efficiency. If you do reach the high levels, it can still suddenly become a bit "feast or famine" if you're not able to play more high-risk/high reward. The thing about short quests like Ash Alley and Purple Cavern is they smooth out the blips after stuff like big DM events or spice.

Anyway, not sure what more there is to say for me. Thanks for the discussion. 

[Kiaring]

One thing I could add to this, is the following idea:


I really enjoy the level design behind quests like "Plunging for Pittance" and "Trouble in the Stables". Very short, and to-the-point quests, that nevertheless feature a high degree of randomization. Maybe this could be adopted to high level quests also? You walk into the QA, there's maybe one encounter with lower-level spawns so you know what to expect IC from the boss, and then a really swole boss the entire party needs to work together in defeating? Could be a fun model for short quests, and the challenge would be compounded by the 'randomness' factor of the spawns. You might get like a weaponmaster type boss and his goons, or a rogue type with traps to help him, or a cleric who will heal himself / his guards, or a mad wizard who would summon a lot of stuff?

Anyways, just my two cents: I think more variety in high-level quests is definitely desirable. I also know next to nothing about the challenge (a nightmare, surely, from what I imagine) of balancing such a complex machine like EfU, but I will say this: I generally prefer it when rewards / XP get nerfed, as opposed to level ranges. Level ranges getting nerfed means you can't help, even if you want to.


EDIT: I am not saying, at all, that I think there's 'too little variety'. I respect players' points of view on this, but I don't know / haven't explored the module enough to confidently be able to say I think we need more quests. Plus, the changelogs always feature a lot of high-end stuff being added, lately, so I think it's more of a matter of these things being intentionally hard to find / super difficult by design.