An Overdue Call for Balance: Heavy Melee

Started by Empress of Neon, January 17, 2021, 08:11:34 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Empress of Neon

In the previous chapters of efu, we had a system in which hp was randomly generated each lvl. Giving heavy melee classes inherently meeker hp output then they do today. This was compensated, however, with an abundance of magical items and buffing vials that made the class (however silly it looked to be chugging THAT many potions in the middle or before combat) feasible. It was also a very clear means of giving those very same classes (barbarian and fighter, mostly) a fighting chance against spellcasters (who, back then, were even DEADLIER than today's counterparts).

Unfortunately, this has translated into a new imbalance that has stuck out for the last year that needs to be addressed. Why now? Because that random hp generation is no longer a factor, heavy melee classes now enjoy an obscene amount of health in addition to those readily-available buffing vials and magical items that give them a very clear and obvious advantage over... well, practically everyone.

An evocationist mage, for example, has little to no chance to defeating an enspelled warrior nowadays without major control. Or a ridiculously high-tiered elemental to smashy-smash. And I can personally attest to a rogue's futile attempt to square off with a barbarian on SHEER HP ALONE despite a successful stun. Why? Because buffs -and- vanilla-game hp output have tilted the server's years-long balance into a new spectrum. Compound all this by the fact that there seems to be more and more loot capable of giving buffed (or even UNBUFFED) heavy classes save scores that were once uniquely privy to monks or the like? You end up with a server favoring heavy melee classes over all others.

Don't get me wrong; the synergy between a buffed warrior and her wizardly mistress is a wonderful thing that should be encouraged. But as the way things are right now? I have to make the following suggestions:

1. Return to the random hp generation per level system (probably the easiest).
2. Make vials and magic items that give heavy classes MUCH more rare.
3. Buff up the other classes (and spells) to keep up with the heavies (probably the hardest).

I hope this suggestion will be taken seriously so that we may one day again find reason to be frightened of crazy wizard fireballs :)

cmenden

I'd hate to see us lose max hp, but maybe more damage for spells would be a nice balance?

Could bump them all up a die-size, magic missiles doing d6+1 per level... fireballs doing d8 per level!

Empress of Neon

Need to think about the other classes to. Rogues feel so sadly under-powered with how easy it is to scale ac these days. Same with monks... who, let's be honest, have the kind of AB that makes you feel like you're beating on a puppy >.<

RNN

This has always felt off to me. Max HPs inherently favours the high hitdie classes. I think ideally you would have 50% hps to 75% a level without any randomisation.

To compare the two extremes: say the average HPs with rolling was .75% of max after 3rd level.
A barbarian would receive 9 hps on level. With max they receive 12. It is nearly the equivalent of boosting their constitution by 6 (ignoring the default max HP for the first 3 levels).

By the same token, a sorcerer would receive 3 HPs a level under 75%, with max HPs, 4. A pseudo increase in constitution of 2.

Nazey

The lower average HP you have across characters the more fights become determined by RNG crit fishing.  I didn't play in previous chapters, but if other classes are falling behind I'd rather see them buffed directly than see all HP values drop.

Bacon_Cheese_Burger

Pretty sure a pvp rogue/bard will crush a fighter any day of the week. If any class needs a buff it is the fighter.

Once that is said, I agree that evoker wizards can acturly struggle to kill a pc, with direct dmg, unless they somehow stun the victim first.

putrid_plum

I really don't get the assumption that rogues are subpar,  this is simply not true in any way.

If anything a fighter needs a bonus compared to barbarians or some of the summons I have seen, let alone the druid forms you can get. 

Richørd

Lol okay, I am going to heavily disagree with this change.

This reeks of a "just drink a clarity lol" kind of solution like what I kept hearing back when barbarian fear furor used to be super broken. And guess what, it was so strong that the "do or die" DC got entirely removed.

You know what's going to happen if you randomize HP? People casually taking a stroll in the woods and getting themselves wrecked if they roll a bad number on the RNG scale, just so they can take the level and try getting a better number that time.
It would just add another layer of RNG to this game, something that's really not necessary.

Further, unless you got invis-ganked by a fully buffed melee I don't see why this is an "overdue call for balance".
Do you know what the biggest middle finger up the ass (to those who don't enjoy it) for a "heavy melee" is?
Spending multiple rounds drinking potions to think you are ready for combat, then receiving one dispel to the face and a "do or die" mind save afterwards by a hasted caster. GG, it can be over right there.

Crying for a lack of balance because melees can x4 or x3 crit you into oblivion in a single round is unreasonable in an environment where mages can basically achieve the same but through different means.
And there's already a potion tax on melees. If you decrease the income of qwest-found potions you bind melees even more to either being lucky or OOCly organizing their personal buff bot mage / cleric.

Leave the game as it is, it's too balanced to be fucked over by retroactively adding RNG HP.

Also agreeing that cross-class builds already own most pure builds in melee.

Dredi

I personally just wish that - outside of pvp - evoker casters didnt just..feel like utter garbage.

I'd love to be able to cast a fireball more than once or twice in a given quest area and have it be actually meaningful.

SamB123

I really don't see how turning off max HP is going to fix the "issue" of Meleers being able to use x3/x4 weapons.


And to be clear, I don't think the fact that Meleers can use x3/x4 to defeat classes with less HP as an actual issue either. We have wizards who can - if you fail the save for their spell - kill you in one round. There are all kinds of hard counters to deal with Meleers.

Electrohydra

My evoker actually felt pretty powerful in PvE. It depends on the quest of course, but there's a lot of quests with hordes of mobs where a well-placed AoE spell can work absolute wonders. Ordyn Ravenshyde, possibly one of the most well-known PvE crushing machine was also an Evoker. I don't think evokers have a problem with PvE. At least not evoker wizards.