Dual wield and other suggestions...

[wundyboy]

Since we are constantly molding and changing things on EFU, a few suggestions that may improve the livelihood of a rather underappreciated class: The Ranger.

The Ranger, as it currently stands, is a hard 6 cap class, and typically multiclasses into other classes for more benefits with little to no downsides. The Ranger Perks are overall good, but it truly removes the point to go further beyond 6; level 9 is nice for a pure ranger, but it only focuses on a very specific dual wield build for the most part, getting ITWF and an additional +1 ab vs FEs.

I've a couple ideas to remedy this.

First, 3.5 E of Dungeons and Dragons includes chain shirts into light armor, giving rogues accessibility to 4/4 armor. This doesn't really help rangers specifically, but I think it'd be an overall QoL improvement for the class. More strength rogues, diverse builds, etc ,would be available, as well as allow a wizard or sorcerer to invest for chain shirts with the sacrifice of only a single feat.

Secondly, 3.5E also includes banded mail into medium armor, allowing most classes to wear 6/3, though in EFU it'd be 6/1. I think this would be a healthy addition to four classes; the ranger, the barbarian, the bard, and the druid. It makes them have less of an investment on dexterity, and it allows them to utilize an armor that is heavily avoided and ignored.

Third, the dual wield feat for rangers should be altered to include medium armor. There's little reason for it to not to, and the benefits for a ranger would help them out a bit more. Strength rangers, for example, could actually dual wield without being as heavily penalized for their ac, since at best they can wear a studded and dual wield, suffering from AC shortages, or peculiar ability point splits.

Fourth, the Favored Enemy system should be reworked to not have a wide variety of choices, but a very simple grouping. Dragons, elementals, and outsiders, for example, could be tethered in a single FE feat, or all subraces in another. However, there is two downsides to this. One, you can only select two FEs from this point on. At creation, and at level 8. AB bonuses for their FEs are lost if they multiclass, but they still retain the damage and skill bonuses versus FEs. Two, the perks that are acquired from the class are also lost on multiclassing. But, on the plus side, pure rangers are heavily rewarded for remaining pure- they acquire heavily stylized perks that reflect their favored enemy, and makes them a bit equal to a multiclass or other pure class.

For example, if I were to take the 'I hate PCs' (Let's be honest, it'll be the most picked one, because everyone expects PVP once in their character's life time) favored enemy, I would acquire the ability to collect ears off of fallen PCs (not killed, just subdued), the ability to examine mark, set and disable trap bonuses, and spot and listen bonuses.  They also acquire above average traps a reset; (deadly snares, no damage traps), and an additional bonus damage vs their FE group.

A ranger with the planar hunting focus, on the other hand, has the plethora of elementals, dragons, outsiders, abberation, and fey. They receive bonuses to will, an increase to their spellcraft, protection from all outsiders (like the FE outsider perk currently does), immunity to fear, some elemental resistances, and a 1/day ability to use the flame weapon ability, similar to the fighter dual wield perk.

This is only just a few suggestions, but as you can see, the combination of these grouping of FEs could be extremely powerful. I would, as an off hand note, mention that gold dwarfs should lose their FE: Aberration feat, to prevent 'triple dipping' in the FE bonus pool. But, these things can help create a more pronounced identity for the ranger class overall, and show how a ranger is the exemplar of being a master huntsman of his favored enemies.

Personally, I'm a bit tired of hearing of ranger/x builds, because most of the time, it's done for free ab bonuses, and no one really portrays their hatred to humans. Ever.

So some times a shift in the dynamic of the server is necessary to change certain attitudes and hopefully breathe some life into a class that horribly needs it.

Or you could ignore my suggestion and let people be ranger/x memers forever ha ha ha ha.

[Richørd]

Okay.

I think it discredits how good pure rangers can be when we only consider the multiclass-meta-builds.

level 9 is nice for a pure ranger, but it only focuses on a very specific dual wield build for the most part, getting ITWF and an additional +1 ab vs FEs.

It also gives +3 damage in total against all FEs instead of +2 but this statement highlights perfectly how everyone also forgets all the other bonuses of FE. But alright, let's not get too much into sneaking and spotting.
I should also say that 10 levels of pure ranger is like the holy grail of power unlocks for any pure build (aside arguably from barbarians, level 8 is crazy good for them).



1. Don't think making chain shirts light armor would cause any major balance problems aside from the wizards and sorcerers you mentioned.

2. No, please. Let's not give barbarians a buff in the armor department. Please!

Secondly, 3.5E also includes banded mail into medium armor, allowing most classes to wear 6/3, though in EFU it'd be 6/1. I think this would be a healthy addition to four classes; the ranger, the barbarian, the bard, and the druid. It makes them have less of an investment on dexterity, and it allows them to utilize an armor that is heavily avoided and ignored.

I say this as a barbarian player! You don't want to see barbs with Duelist's Splint Mail. It's like a god damn +1 full plate against most player races.
Please. Think of the children! :(

3. No, please let's not give Rangers their full dual wield bonuses while wearing medium armor ... especially with the changes you mentioned before this one it would create HUGE balance problems. And we are not even done yet!

4. This is way too vague to give an opinion on. So I won't.



Also on a last note, I do think they portray their hatred to humans. Because usually FE:Human folks are PvP centric characters and therefore, since most characters are humans, very anti-human in their actions.

[wundyboy]

You're missing the point of my argument.

My argument is essentially to make a pure class more viable for being pure, instead of the insistence of multiclassing being the only viable option.

The duelist splint argument is also farfetched and moot- remove the armor from the module? It's not hard? And it's not as particularly common as you think.

There is a reason that perks are strong, because its meant to be an incentive to remain pure. Ranger perks, however, capitalize at level six, and heightens its want to multiclass over all other perks available in game. A fighter must remain pure. A rogue must remain pure. A sorcerer must remain pure. A ranger does not need to do this.

So the idea is to buff being pure, and allow people to not focus on making silly ranger 6 / x rogue or ranger 6 / x fighter builds. If a pure class is strong and viable, people will remain pure. Look at rogues to finalize my argument. Not a lot of people multiclass rogues, because their perks are very strong and exclusive to their class. If the other perks match their value in investment, then there will be less multiclassing as a result.

And, frankly, dual wielding is very bad at the moment. If you haven't played a dual wielder lately, you don't know why that is. Losing 10 ab - yes, TEN, for a single round is HEAVILY crippling, so you have to awkwardly hold out your weapons if you plan on dual wielding. It's a massive slap on the wrist, for something that is rarely done in the first place. So yes, I would like to see a buff to rangers, who have access to a feat that is completely limited by a stupid 3E rule, to let them do as they please.

And...

Also on a last note, I do think they portray their hatred to humans. Because usually FE:Human folks are PvP centric characters and therefore, since most characters are humans, very anti-human in their actions.

This is extremely laughable. No one is going around talking about how much they hate humans as a human. MOST players are not going around portraying themselves as bounty hunters, or competent trackers of humans, or anything of the sort. No, Richard, they are taking the feat, because its +2 ab and damage for no penalty, and then praying, hoping, for that one moment where they can flex on people. No one is 'anti-human' to the point where they are literally doing everything to burn down the Peerage, or kill themselves if they are humans. These are extreme interpretations of the FE, but the point of favored enemy is that it is a burning hatred to see them dead. And it's not being granted this at all by players.

[Disorder]

Hey, community.

I never thought of myself as of person who is big when it comes to balance, but hear me out.

I wish to touch part of ranger's f.e. feats specifically from perspective of roleplaying of how you gain those.

So, lvl 1 f.e. feat is a no-brainer. It's what comes from a background of your pc. You're an adult person, who's been studying through their life how to kill certain kind of foe. Or you're 16 years old person whose dad or mom taught you how to kill, let's say, animals. Pretty easy, right?
But what about that level five f.e. I do get a feeling that it's not something players actually roleplay. It's just something they pick to complete their build, achieving that not via any kind of activity related to studying certain type of enemy, but rather delivering Glitt sir's lunch or Alina's letter. Keep in mind I am saying this not to offend anyone, it's just a vibe that I get after playing a ranger myself.

So what would I want to be done about it? Move second favored enemy feat pick into later stage. Level 7, or maybe even 8. Sounds wild? Perhaps.
And another thing, make that feat to persist in case of death and level loss.

As another alternative I see implementation of mechanics similar to Arelith's server. Rangers had there "Studied enemy". The more you kill certain group of foes, the better you perform against it, receive mechanic bonuses like ab and damage.

Lastly, quality of perk bonuses. Let's admit that some racial groups has way better bonuses and are way more common around the server. Do I suggest to tweak entire server quest and random mob spawns to achieve a balance in quantity of this or another racial type? No. What I'd like to see are adjustments made to perk bonuses of less common racial types. Golems would be an example, along with fey.

[Decimate_The_Weak]

I think the only change rangers need is for the EfU custom FE bonuses to be pure only and the ab/damage halved if you multiclass.

[HowlingLikeAWolf]

Ranger is strong in the right hands.  Stealth is not to be underestimated as a mechanic if it is chosen. 

Broader FE choices is a good thing.  It's frustrating to be so specialized. 

However,I would like to see some nerfs to ranger-multiclass.  It's frankly too strong to run ranger 6/fighter 4 at this time, or some of the other combinations.   Ranger is a very multi-attribute class, placing emphasis on strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence and wisdom.  It's also a class that is often skill point starved.

It's hard to sneak and be able to use detection skills and have stuff like tumble or traps or spot or animal empathy.  Something has to be left out.  You can't have it all. 
Typically that's the stealth that gets left out. Meaning, it just makes more sense usually to grab a platemail to minimize dexterity investment and be a fancy fighter with some utility.   


I would also think it reasonable for rangers to be able to dual wield in  medium armor/chain shirts.  Never understood why that wasn't the case except for an arbitrary NWN decision.

Also, free dwarf Abberation has to go. Racial saves already very strong on them.