Don't call it a Comeback

Started by Random_White_Guy, September 22, 2021, 06:26:12 PM

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Random_White_Guy

I know I get thrown a lot of jabs for retiring PCs often, but one thing you can say is when I leave a PC they more or less stay gone.  I wanted to speak on one instance, Ser Percival where I decided to retire a PC to much mocking and chastisement as a "Failed Knight" and someone who gave away the shop, and the but of a great many jokes because "Oh boy RwG retired again"

But I knew OOCly I was leaving for 2 weeks due to both work deadlines and covid vaccine the first time hit me like a bus, and the catch up on work would be another week or two, and I was in a place where vanishing would suck, but it wouldn't suck as much as me Vanishing and then me Coming Back.

It sucks that people who are playing a PC get busy, there's no denying it and it's completely understandable. Life happens and EFU is a game. However it also sucks because if you have a character vanish it leaves a vacuum.  People make characters, the story of EFU continues, and more often than not folks just shrug and get on with life. It's the nature of the Server.

But it sucks even more when your MIA PC suddenly returns and people moved on to the Vacuum to suddenly an age-gone presence suddenly chiming in for a variety of reasons.

I don't know if it's because PCs don't get knifed down as much as they used to, or if people tend to just hop on and off PCs more often but I'm sure most people on EFU have a story somewhere where it has happened to them. As a PC you try to roll with the punches, you try to adapt, you remember it's a game, that everyone is trying to have fun. This isn't a dig at the people who have done this, but i'd like to just try and offer my perspective on things.

QuoteHouse Sunpurse

A few months ago myself and Cmenden were asked by Blue41 to help because the Sunpurse Faction was empty during the summer doldrums and he was trying to push agenda. So we rolled new PCs to get into the thick of it and help. Things were starting to progress and things were going well and then things were firing on all cylinders. We had plans with DMs to run a few player plots, PC efforts were swaying, and things were moving along.

Then Kiaring returned on their Knight PC who had been MIA for a very long time. Okay, life happens, that's fair. Except to other PCs it stopped being trying to meet with us, with Blue41's PC who was shotgunning Sunpurse for nearly a month+ by himself, and our steps to make PC agenda and presence. It became "Cool nice to see you, can you get me in to meet with Eris Hale."

To the PC narrative suddenly we were supporting cast for a new presence, which is an old presence, which is a new presence.

Then Loveless returned on his Masterwork House Armor having PC who had been MIA since before the Count had even taken power months and months ago. Ooh, he's shiny, he's strong, he's fun. You try to adapt, Okay, things happen, let's roll with the punches and see where things go.  Oh wait he hates the Count, there's a cool story there except where was he when we were being throttled in the lower levels by the booming House Velstra and for ages trying to push a direction.

That's my own experience, but to put it in perspective, here's what I saw happening semi-parallel with House Glitt.

QuoteHouse Glitt

Baron and Lady Greymoor of Findlay's Glenn were both missing in action due to RL for whatever reason they may have, it's life, it happens. Since their departure the Barony they were tied to, Findlay's Glenn, was blown up.

Okay, so now they're back with the other refuges. Except Glitt had PCs already engaged in the server's story. Except Orza had been making moves against Glitt PCs for weeks, Velstra, everyone,  Glitt's story and EFU's story doesn't exactly stop. Suddenly here comes from the dusty cupboard a massive 2x4 of not one but two sizably political and influencing PCs, both high level, both rockin' presences.

Cool stories, stories that deserve to be told, but then comes two questions.

How do the External PCs who are dealing with IG matters suddenly react to the Vanishing and Reappearing and Vanishing Knight?

How do the Glitt PCs who were engaged in House Glitt already adapt to now there's a new Boss In Town again?

There's more examples.

If I wanted to spend more time I can go on with Velstra, with Orza, with Druids, or with random adventurer PCs who pop up and are suddenly level 9 and want to swing hammer because hey let's swing a hammer.

It's not a perfect world by any means and the nature of EFU is always fluid. It has to be by virtue of existing as a story and server.

But at the same time? I'd love -love- to start a later leg of a PC's live after all my enemies are dead or gone and push get into the meat and potatoes of EFU without having to suffer through the annoyances of the Grind and having to get Levels and Supplies and Equipment and get into what ever seems real fun at the moment. Your enemies are gone, your friends one or two may still be around, OOCly PCs know who you are and what your agenda was and what your new plan may be. PCs you've never met clamor over one another to meet "That PC they heard of from a friend".

I get there are safeholds in place and PCs get retired, I get DMs have to give a nod on this kind of thing, but it just feels like there's been a lax on it. Or maybe the PC culture just doesn't see it as much of a thing.

I wish it weren't an isolated incident and people could come and go as they pleased.

Today I just saw a PC make a sending who's last sending was November 2020. A Blackjack.

After myself and many other PCs spent time trying to shake things up in Ticker, an old blackjack suddenly appeared and PCs wanted to talk about shake downs and harassment.

And my enthusiasm just dissolved in Thanos dust.

PCs tried to say 'It's fine RwG, we're trying to take moves against this, it happens'

Why does it happen though? And why does it feel like it's happening now more than ever?

I know without DM approval it can be retired by the Dms, but even with DM Approval to return it just sucks. I get everyone wants to tell their story, but it just sucks. It creates such a cognitive hurdle in stories and politics and efforts - Things like Stranger's return was at least feeling of an IC presence from IC actions.

But when a PC vanishes the world moves on, when they show up 2+ months later with all their titles and supplies and levels and more in tact? It's just an unfair push to anyone having to deal with that, let alone the factional upheaval and more.

I don't know how to fix it, I know lengthy posts of facts and stories people don't give a shit usually about talking about, but it just sucks.

And I don't know how to end it, aside from just hanging up a PC and finding something else to do.
[11:23 PM] Howlando: Feel free LealWG
[11:23 PM] Howlando: I'll give you a high five + fist bump tip

[1:34 AM] BigOrcMan: RwG, a moment on the lips, forever on the hips

KaedweniKnight

This server is not a job, people forget that on here often. Play what you like, and honestly play for it for enjoyment at the value of creating a enjoyable roleplaying space for your fellow players is one of the motivation I have. The wheel will continue to spin but Ticker is going to be a lot more lackluster without RwG shining it up as well.


Random_White_Guy

Quote from: KaedweniKnight on September 22, 2021, 09:54:51 PM
This server is not a job, people forget that on here often. Play what you like, and honestly play for it for enjoyment at the value of creating a enjoyable roleplaying space for your fellow players is one of the motivation I have. The wheel will continue to spin but Ticker is going to be a lot more lackluster without RwG shining it up as well.

Absolutely man, and at the end of the day it's 100% an enjoy able game for relaxification and creative outlet. It's nice of you to say but there's ample things still to come from countless other Ticker PCs and as you say the wheel keeps on turning.

I know we never know fully what's going on with people in the RL space, and it's an administrative decision by the DMs, but at the same time  I don't deny it sucks when RL overtakes and things intervene, and I've got nothing but love for Kiaring and Loveless and Dan and SgtWombat, Solipso and everyone mentioned - it wasn't meant to be a hatchet job at all towards any PCs.

I just feel it's a discussion worth having since it really does crop up a lot, especially in factional PCs but even PCs outside of factions really do still have such a hand in, for lack of a better term,  engaging in the world weeks or months after they were last tapping the scene.

Where's the line between a PC on a break and a PC who is gone is 100% a choice for the DMs to make, it's administrative and i'm not denying or contesting that.

But there's this... jarring effect, when PCs with history appear over PCs who don't. Even if it's the smallest history, there's still PCs who know them and PCs who used to play with them and a bit of OOC wink. You know a name, you know a character, even if your PC is a factional character on another part of the server there' s just that... mixture of history and clout that a new PC just doesn't have.

If PCs had the option for a 5-10 minute DM-granted ride off into the sunset as opposed to just a "Well, this sucks but c'est EFU", would that make a difference?

Or if DMs doing custom endings, a scripted Endlude portal like EFU used to have the Hardcore start? Some big last hurrah quest with some interesting lore after a "From this point it is permadeath" jump off?

Because most of the time the PCs that do return seem to to do so because something catches the interest and feels hot at the moment to leap into, or wanting some satisfying "End" of the PC who got interrupted by unpleasant circumstance.

As opposed to an old PC rejoining a dull and quiet faction after dusting off a PC from the shelves or returning when the faction is empty.
[11:23 PM] Howlando: Feel free LealWG
[11:23 PM] Howlando: I'll give you a high five + fist bump tip

[1:34 AM] BigOrcMan: RwG, a moment on the lips, forever on the hips

Damien

My name is griff and I approve smack talking old pcs that players bring back and try to throw weight around.

Ethika

I think this is a matter related to the rules and whether or not they are begin followed:

QuoteLong Absences
Application-based, subrace, faction, prominent/semi-prominent or high-level PCs who are not played for over a month should not return to active play unless permission is given from a DM or through application. We are eager to welcome back players to EFU but it can be highly disruptive for characters that have long been missing to make a return.

All of these situations you've described would require the players in question to either get expressed permission from a DM or make an application. It can be hard for the DM team to monitor when everyone logs in, so this rule is likely more of an honor system.

Perhaps though they all made an application and were approved, not for me to say. Although I would encourage old players to think twice about returning without good reasons and for the DM team to scrutinize them more heavily.  As RwG said they can cause quite a stir and not always for the best reasons.


SunrypeSlim

If you bring back a PC from retirement (or other such delay), bring cupcakes. Gandalf didn't roll up to Frodo and start honking his horn shouting "LET'S GO!" He brought cupcakes.

Bounce other PCs on your knee and tell stories! You should be like a fish being transferred from one tank to another.
PM me for an apology! :3

Slithy Tove

This is a non-issue. What's more jarring and causes more "cognitive hurdles in stories and politics and efforts" is PCs building huge sandcastles for a week or two weeks and talking up their efforts and their IC commitment and then suddenly retiring/flaking.

Rey

Suddenly disappearing is the easiest thing in the world to cognitively adjust to. People die all the time, vast majority of the time my PC didn't witness it. She's nonetheless gotten extremely used to people suddenly disappearing and their sandcastles crumbling . Hell, by the dozen sometimes.

Random_White_Guy

Quote from: Slithy Tove on September 24, 2021, 11:52:40 AM
This is a non-issue. What's more jarring and causes more "cognitive hurdles in stories and politics and efforts" is PCs building huge sandcastles for a week or two weeks and talking up their efforts and their IC commitment and then suddenly retiring/flaking.

I appreciate the petty shot at me because it highlights my point, not that this is a referendum on me, but brings up the chat you and Abala had in Discord:

"abala — 09/07/2021
Ciorba, do you think Cuibhne should have been a knight?"

"Dumbala — 09/07/2021
I mean if Percy set the standard for knighthood then sure."

"abala — 09/07/2021
Yeah that knighthood was a joke"

I joined the faction when Cuibhne was the only PC active and barely playing, the House was empty so he recruited me, he was probably Percy's biggest starting ally and set a lot of the tone for why he even went after the Ghylherd Plot in the Steadings. I was the only PC in the faction and I engaged every faction politically, I faced a Permadeath Duel at level 7, after winning the duel an assembly had to be made for a push and more deals cut, and in the aftermath I went on to create a PC faction, revitalize Glitt, and push a number of agendas in what you call "A week or two sand castle".

But If I had come back 4 weeks later after my RL had cooled out? Percy was still a Knight of the Peerage with clout and could have edged out all the other Glitt who filled in the Faction in my absence. Would it have been "More Heroic" or "More Worthy" a knighthood if I had a chance to continue his story?

What if I came back on him now with Cat and Fitzwilliam kicking absolute ass with both of them taking a pretty big reign on the Faction in terms of politics, activity, and pursuits?

What if I had come back and gone into the deep rings and Executed stranger for being a dishonorless cur who shattered the publicly agreed upon terms of his duel after having 4 weeks where there was no way for us to conflict or contest?

QuoteSuddenly disappearing is the easiest thing in the world to cognitively adjust to. People die all the time, vast majority of the time my PC didn't witness it. She's nonetheless gotten extremely used to people suddenly disappearing and their sandcastles crumbling . Hell, by the dozen sometimes.

Rey hit pretty much on the head why people vanishing isn't that uncommon.  Beyond the ten thousand other reasons things come to an end on EFU, permadeath DM Quests are constant. One recently wiped out Dame Fleta and the Last Knave and beyond and there wasn't some abhorrent vacuum. PCs are always there to fill the vacuum. The problem I was addressing was when that vacuum is filled it explodes like a water balloon when people return to older PCs who for whatever reason vacate.

The issue having spoken to a few DMs on the matter is it does come down to a DM choice but at the same time when PCs see old faces crop up they begin to bring back their older PCs. If a DM sees them IG and then asks them to apply, typically they're gonna do it.

If multiple PCs start doing it then it stops being an aberration. It's an ethical dilemma for the DMs for certain but i'd say it's an ethical dilemma for the PCs too, and one that a lot of people have opinions on.

It's not one that's ever gonna go away soon but I'm curious if anyone has any ideas for how it can be made less awkward, smoother transitions, or other IG mechanisms that can keep some IC continuity when without notice suddenly a faction is rudderless, people rise up to take the reigns, and suddenly someone comes back with a "Ha ha, thanks for holding down the fort boys now do what I say or I'll kill/shame/berate/abuse you."
[11:23 PM] Howlando: Feel free LealWG
[11:23 PM] Howlando: I'll give you a high five + fist bump tip

[1:34 AM] BigOrcMan: RwG, a moment on the lips, forever on the hips

ADarkDaysKnight

I think a lot of this boils down to player attitude towards character and faction dynamic. DMs can only do so much with apps and such, and certainly it's understandable when life gets in the way, but a player still wants to continue their old PC, but my question is thus: Why would a scheming faction or indie PC WANT to engage so readily with an older returning PC? Newer PCs are the ones who are clawing for prestige, clout and fame or infamy. They're the ones you want to mold, manipulate, and challenge. Sure there's a certain "wow factor" to a week old PC challenging Sir Knight-Now-Reappearing-In-This-Film and winning, but I would rather see a rivalry build between House Moonspear's newest up-and-comer and the Vale's latest gossip-monger for the longevity of the story. Clout and prestige don't generate via osmosis. You have to go out and claim it yourself, and new PCs just starting their stories are, IMO, where to find it.
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Rey

How about a mandatory de-leveling back to level 6 for any PCs returning from an extended break?

This would represent their skills atrophying from a lack of practice, and would limit their ability to impact the server (in terms of force anyway) until they can get back up to the higher lvls, forcing them into a kind of re-establishment phase before they can really get cranking.

Damien

De-leveling wouldn't be effective at all.

Stripping characters of their prestige/knighthood would be a good option though. If you genuinely want to play your character then this won't dissuade you. If it does then it just proves you wanted to flex your epenis.


Rey

The idea isn't to dissuade you from playing the PC, its to make your PC very vulnerable in case someone wants to kill it. I don't think dissuading people is going to work, you could de-level my PC to 1 and I'd still play her--not all of us care so much about all that, even though most of you take it very, very seriously. But a short period of vulnerability just gives people options, that's all.

Not trying to control people's behavior, instead making sure the OTHER pcs have lots of options available to them for how they want to respond.

Why don't you think it would have any effect? Could you explain in any greater detail?

greypawn

There is already a ruling on this in the wiki, is there not?  You must fill out an application and get it approved by a DM to come back.  Perhaps ask the staff to be more strict with their ruling here.

https://wiki.efupw.com/index.php?title=Server_Rules#Long_Absences

SamB123

Quote from: greypawn on September 28, 2021, 04:41:55 AM
There is already a ruling on this in the wiki, is there not?  You must fill out an application and get it approved by a DM to come back.  Perhaps ask the staff to be more strict with their ruling here.

https://wiki.efupw.com/index.php?title=Server_Rules#Long_Absences
I really think this is the solution. It's very jarring when a PC that's been gone for MONTHS, had a differing agenda (that's no longer relevant), tons of prestige from the old days, etc., etc. come back. And frankly, it's, imho, a disservice to your fellow players.


Now, I get it with certain PCs and certain players. But still.