Make Peerage PVP free between retainers and non retainers

[I love cats]

Do it like other chapters where team law does not need a DM or designate a "banner house" that's the law. This trend of ner do Wells fleeing into the peerage to the safety of "No Dm Online" is dumb and senseless. As is plots to ambush certain PCS and merchants who are never in the peerage when a DM is online.  I gave my 2 cents and it's silly. Otherwise my suggestion of a tactical nuke on the peerage is open.

[VanillaPudding]

I agree with the foundations of this suggestion. There is a pretty heavy lack of active DMs in certain timezones and players are, for the lack of a better term, "abusing" the npcs in an area that would actually not be safe for them based upon peerage traditions and otherwise.

I think it would be good if:

1. The peerage were "pvp free" at night, as in the npcs leave the bridge duty and otherwise turn GREY.  (Blame the Nothing, it's coming some day and night is scary?)
2. Retainers were allowed to PVP in the ward under clear rule that no FD can happen to OTHER retainers from other houses without a dm.

[zerotje]

Fully agree. Retainers have the authority IC already so why not OOC.

[Bacon_Cheese_Burger]

Its all fun and games untill someone FD a retainer in selfdefence, or hits an NPC with a fireball.

[NightyNightSleepTight]

A few thoughts that goes against the grain.

First) A somewhat pedantic one. One of the laws posted clearly at the bridge entrance to the Ward is that it is the duty of all retainers to defend those assaulted by another. If retainer A of house B attacks another, all other retainers should be attempting to stop the first retainer. Presuming that NPC retainers are generally lawful, they would be inclined to follow this rule or at least put a little bit of effort into it.

Second) Giving retainers free reign to assault others (by not having DMs present to provide NPC reaction) muddies the distinction between the Great Houses and lumps them all into a greater metafaction (the Great Houses) instead of the individual factions they should be representing to promote conflict between them. One retainer seeing another retainer commit assault and reacting by thinking "oh boy we're beating down a random peasant, I want in on that!" is less interesting than "why is this retainer abusing a random peasant and maybe I might have reasons I wouldn't allow that?". An argument could be made that retainers do not have the de facto authority to PvP others in the Ward because, ICly, NPC retainers might have an interest in not letting other retainers exercise such power, e.g., "the Orzans are abusing people in Little Ticker again, I, a retainer of Glitt who is leal to Lady Mairead, should act to defend her honour by defending the people she offered help to".

Third) The Ward is (or at least pretends to be) a lawful society and lawful societies are generally less likely to fall back on might-makes-right barbarism. Retainers starting fights should be seen as embarrassments, as if they have lost prestigious points.

Fourth) Changing the rule so that PvP is allowed but FDs are not feels like it's just shifting the goal posts and maybe even makes things more difficult for the DMs. If the no-PvP rule is broken, the DMs have to get involved. If the no-FD rule is broken, the DMs still have to get involved and will need to be even more diligent in their work because a player is much more likely to be upset about losing their PC than having things stolen from their PC.

[Gordan]

Absolutly no

This is a terrible idea

You say there are players who abuse blue NPC, i cant denie that, but think on how many retainers would just jump on people for stupid reasons or banditry because "they can"

Retainers that figth in the middle of the ward are breaking the law in the first place and need DM supervision for it, you cant just start attack people in a area they feel safe like that.

The peerage ward would turn into the Moil in no time with orzans robbing PC of low level for no reason if not greed and Moonspears kill all not-humans on sigth.

Some people like hubs, they like the idea of having a safe area for have interactions and roleplay without the fear and stir that come questing and ringrunning.

PS: Drd, we all get you are nt happy with the server situation, but just because you have problems with the setting you  don't ruin it for others.

[Empress of Neon]

Going to have to agree with Bacon's/Nighty's points. The Houses are far from a monolithic faction that are all just going to agree on every random encounter of non-house pcs (if anything, they enjoy sticking a finger in eachothers' eyes), and even the Blackjacks who are the ACTUAL guards of the Burgage have to abide by some basic protocol.

Here's some alternative suggestions for you as the player, if you feel strongly about this:

1. If your character is going to start 'muscling' on other players in an npc area that could potentially result in pvp, inform the dms. You have no idea if they have friends (npc or otherwise) in the area; and it's dismissive of other consequences that could follow: such as a spontaneous riot erupting from the blatant oppression, depending on the clout/reputation of that pc. Nevermind that, yes, accidents happen and npcs could triggered by a stray spell or players who might KILL a retainer are left in an awkward limbo (Why are you assuming the retainers would always win?).

2. If players are hiding in 'lawful' areas, then you should treat it as such ic. Push to have them rooted out or held accountable. Actually work/compromise ic if someone is driving your pc that insane with their exploiting the 'shield' that comes with the masses. I shouldn't even be having to explain this.

3. Lastly, and most importantly, remember that you're playing with a community, and that co-creation's the spice of roleplay. Instead of getting hissy about how you're 'not allowed to do this' ic because of rules that have been there on efu for a VERY long time for a VERY good reason, ask instead how you can make a good story out of the guidelines given. Hiring assassin/thuggy pcs. Politicking. Escalation or anything else that comes to mind that might make it more fun/tense for everyone. The server's not here to fulfill power-fantasies.


I am vehemently against this suggestion. Unless the Ward became another lawless  'every-man/woman-for-themselves' region like the Drydocks, Ponds, etc.?

No.

P.S A certain player who shall go unnamed demonstrated spectacularly why giving players who join houses that kind of free reign/exception to the rules is a terrible idea. (Namely, don't trust us players!)

Don't turn efu into a lol-troll-griefer playground.

[Iconoclast]

The Watchers were able to initiate pvp in EFUR within specific boundaries (no looting, no killing, no long detainment, articulable cause) and it never was a problem. So here is my solution.

BLACKJACKS!

Allow the Blackjacks to initiate peacekeeping pvp. It will give them something to do other than just puff their chest, allow them to impose themselves on the population, and because of the nature of their gear they will do so at a real disadvantage.

[-UnholyWon-]

Like VP, I agree with the foundation of this suggestion. I recently had a PC as a Blackjack who's goal was to bring law & order to the Ward. While I failed miserably, I still like the idea of some form of law enforcement within the Ward, but attempting to bring some type of law to the Ward was challenging, rewarding, and frustrating.

Players, OOC and IC, need to recognize the Retainers (and maybe the Blackjacks) are authorities in the Ward, and have a legitimate respect for their position as authority figures. As it appears now, Non-retainer players are willing to escalate matters with or without DM presence despite Retainers or Blackjacks seeking a "fair" solution to the immediate issue (searches, extortions, bribes, placating, etc...). In real life, if you violate a rule or law in front of law enforcement you have to pay a price for breaking that rule, whether it's getting tossed around or paying a fine. If you're not going to recognize Retainers and Blackjacks as the authority in the Ward, then perhaps start in the Ponds, and not venture into the Ward.

It is not fair to Retainer characters, as a Non-retainer character to walk into the Ward as Pond's resident, Ticker resident, or other Outsider with the expectation of the Retainer can't do anything to me because there is no DM on or Non-retainer character /will not/ recognize their authority in the Ward.

It is not fair to Retainer characters, as a Non-retainer character to utilize the sending system to make anti-Ward, House, Count, or Retainer sendings, and not expect some form of immediate retaliation even after racing back to the Ward for 'No DM Online' for support.

It is not fair to Non-retainer characters, as a Retainer character to not seek out other solutions to in character conflicts besides permadeath.

It is not fair to Non-retainers characters, as a Retainer character to immediately assume that being in possession contraband or venturing with unknown or known enemies the Non-retainer PC is also evil and deserving of permadeath too.

I could go on and on I think, but the bottom line is to be fair, and act in the best interest of co-creating  a storyline. 

When I played my Blackjack recently, I wanted to do what was reasonable and fair when creating the list of laws, and when I engaged some people I was met with resistance. I had no DM support, and it should have resulted in PvP. Another solution was found, and continued to lead to a fun rivalry. If your only solution is to FD/Permadeath, then either there has been a long chain of events that have led one character saying that is enough and this is the only option, or....

I'm for the Ward having some Law Enforcement.

[merrychase]

The pvp rule boundaries with regards to peerage and other areas is not ideal, but it is rational for both setting reasons and practical reasons.

This suggestion strikes me as stemming more from sour grapes than well considered improvement.

The server is big, and so much of it is pvp-free that giving some characters more latitude to initiate single-party consent pvp without some balancing change could, overall, decrease the quantity and quality of roleplay and character interactions.

As for the complaint about some characters avoiding or minimizing exposure to pvp in NPC populated areas, that could very well be explained by in character reasons, e.g. those characters were forewarned about such a plot. But, even if its not, frankly it could say just as much about you as it does them as role-players. I would rather strive to have a conflict of this type be something all involved players can see as engaging, worthwhile, consequential, and consistent with the characters  and their interactions - and barring that, at least sportingly fair. This may be one reason why retainers are incentivized to engage in formal duels with honor stakes and so forth, rather than drive by shootings in the checkout line.

I really do think if players of retainers put their minds to it, they can come up with lots of other things to try or do in the sort of situation you have described; and indeed both examples in the past, and those offered in this thread are worth considering. Besides, being quick to subdue or kill people may not cement a character's reputation as a lawful authority figure of the realm. Currently, that does seem to me to be something a character has to establish and maintain, rather than be granted by membership status alone.

[putrid_plum]

Disco hit the nail on the head.  What happens when a guy takes down 6 Retainers with no DM?  What happens when some guy just murders them all no DM?  What happens when some guy hits NPCs and messes up faction then kills a ton of random PCs because of it?

The rules are there for multiple reasons.  Yes it sucks that you need a DM at times but it also sucks when some Retainer can just murder or mug you with no DM around too and who can justify those actions?

It's always been like this.

[Father Time]

Heaven forbid on an RP server we have to Roleplay instead of jumping the gun and immediately PVPing.  Turning the Peerage into the Wild West and allowing Retainers to just murk people as they please without NPC's having an opinion is just going to make things worse.

[Pandip]

This is an unfortunate byproduct of inactive DMs and most of these suggestions sound like solutions to a temporary problem and/or a lot of work.

Peerage is already suffering from the homogeneity of the houses and a lack of conflict between them. By and large, the IC and OOC tenor of the server has felt really harsh towards non-retainers, frequently emphasizing looting, exile, or death for relatively minor offenses. This would just exacerbate all of these problems.

The nicest compromise here would be to make the NPCs depart at nighttime, but that sounds like a lot of work on the module for something that (presumably) would only last a couple months.

I'm not really happy with the state of the server right now but at the risk of sounding like too much of apologist, I think we're in a "just live with it" lull that we have to suffer through. I'm just as anxious and bored and frustrated as the people making these suggestions, but  I don't know that there is a tolerable solution right now.

It sucks. We're in the post-Crystal War era of EFUv5. Right now, you really have to invest in a PC that can sustain their own goals without DM intervention or find a compelling way to engage in social roleplay. Or if you don't like that, you can go play Marvel Snap or something.

[Vlaid]

Don't think this is a good idea but I think there should also be a rule that if a Retainer kicks you out unless another Retainer steps in to shield you and allow you to stay, you must exit the Peerage unless you have a DM for ensuing PVP in the ward.

Otherwise I mean...what happens if you lose the pvp? What happens if friends of the person being attacked want to step in? What happens if OTHER retainers want to step into the PVP?

[Diabl0658]

Don't think this is a good idea but I think there should also be a rule that if a Retainer kicks you out unless another Retainer steps in to shield you and allow you to stay, you must exit the Peerage unless you have a DM for ensuing PVP in the ward.

Otherwise I mean...what happens if you lose the pvp? What happens if friends of the person being attacked want to step in? What happens if OTHER retainers want to step into the PVP?

This is sort of a thing already, though its a privilege of knights and not lowly retainers. Probably best that it is only reserved for PCs with a proven track record and not just anyone that pays the 900 for a uniform.