Remove Subdual from Instant Death Spells

[AsheandCinders]

Obviously slightly motivated by recent events, but I've seen this a few times now. People using Especially Phantasmal Killer to Non-Lethally subdue enemies in PvP.

I think this goes against the Spirit of the spells, it's not Phantasmal Knockout after all, and removing them as a Non-Lethal option removes a simple "I win" coin flip from casters unless they are actively willing and ready to kill someone.

Pulling out Death Spells should be a big deal, let them be deadly and deadly only.

[I love cats]

This has been a thing on EFU for years. The idea is wizards can make their spells non lethal. To me it makes more sense  a wizard can control the lethal levels of a phantasm compared to a storm of fire and ice storms

[BigCook]

I agree with drd, ice storm or a giant mace being nonlethal make about as much sense, if not less than a death spell or fear-to-death spell actually just bringing you to the brink of death.

[Pandip]

Critical hits with weapons should automatically FD a PC, too. It doesn't make sense that you could hit someone that hard with a war mace and not risk killing them accidentally.



... in all seriousness, as goofy as parts of that trial were, this is an OOC convenience that we shouldn't carelessly discard.

[Ramc]

I appreciate that casting PHK or Slay Living on someone and them making the saving throw is more likely to catch you an attempted murder charge than succeeding on an instant death spell while on subdual or blackout.

Trying to explain to the cops as you are dragged away "I was casting Subdue Living, I swear."

[Qari]

I agree that death magic should be DEATH magic.

Otherwise we just get a bunch of weird situations where people see death magic in their combat log (EFU standing ruling is "what you see is what you get") so it's understandable for people to go "YOU JUST ATTEMPTED MURDER" IC, and then the caster goes "What do you mean, he didn't die?"

In the case that inspired this at assembly, it looked like the PC actually was on FD mode and then did a "/dm sorry meant to subdue" causing a TR to happen, adding further confusion to an already chaotic situation.


I think it's just a cleaner solution that prevents OOCly confusing situations to just make death magic lethal, period.

[Diabl0658]

I have myself successfully used a variation of the "You just attempted murder!" with no death magic involved. Court cases are about whatever you can get away with arguing, facts do not matter as much as you might think.

Let people subdue with PhK, and let them get thrown to the lions when their victim makes the save and then dunks them.

[Don Nadie]

Imo, the main balance issue of instadeath spells is that most people, after long talking, do not have any buffs... Much less Prot. from Alignment.

On the other hand, not allowing spells to be set to subdual has a simple problem of balance: mages, too, need a way to subdue people! So while not /ideal/ I think its prob best that it stays where it is.

[Nazey]

It really doesn't make sense unless this is applied universally.  The only difference between a sword or a spell being able to subdual someone is a bit of creative thinking.

I do not think it is any less absurd to say you used a non-lethal variant of a spell than it is to say your enchanted magic weapon flail dripping acid can gently bop someone on the head non-lethally and that you can do this in the heat of battle unerringly.

The story we tell doesn't need to transcribe a literal translation of what happens mechanically in game.

[I love cats]

I made a suggestion that all forms of subdual should have a 1% chance of accidental death/FD everyone said no.

[cmenden]

The subdual mechanic is one that's been around the whole time and it's great and lets people not kill other players 100% of the time so conflicts can grow and develop

If the desire is for legal consequences, then I think this is best handled in-game, because realistically when someone swings a sword or casts a fireball, we don't know if that's on "subdual" or "fd" either

If players want to push for more harsh penalties for attacking people, or for magic to be regulated more strictly than weapons, that feels like an in-game PC goal

Someone pointed out even during that last trial that the law says "unarmed" vs "armed" and doesn't mention magic at all, which is interesting

[putrid_plum]

There was a point where death magic was full death always, I've witnessed DMs kill people subdued by such spells.  Perhaps this has changed... I personally am in favor of death magic being full death since it's you know, DEATH magic.  If you want to subdue someone use other methods in my opinion.  The fact EFU is WYSIWYG it gets confusing a bit and a grey OOC area.

[Lannister]

Throwing in my two cents here.

I think that allowing for the choice to continue conflict or make it more meaningful by subdueing and then performing whatever it is you're doing is more valuable than total realism.

If you want your death spells to only be FD, then that is a concious choice I think you should take. There is a reason that traps aren't overly used in PvP because they can't be controlled. Remember that FD is essentially the 'end' of a story, when we're here - even in PvP trying to create one.

If you want stigma around this sort of horrific magic, then it is something I think that can be pushed towards IG. You are after all conjuring up the worst fears of someone.

[1dboy]

yea lets make illusionsists only kill people every time they want to PVP, sounds based having them walk around with big iron on their hip and ready to blast people at a moment's notice

or whenever druids return with GSF necromancy and slay living someone and make their target say hello to their ancestors

seems extremely punishing for those 2 types of play styles. this is also like suggesting if i rob someone for their purse, that because i stabbed them twenty times and they're bleeding on the ground, they should die, even though i can only yank their purse if i subdue them

here's a pro tip

just suspend your disbelief and just enjoy whatever happens.

[Abala]

Just a heads up, but the opposite of this is true. I really dislike people roleplaying these spells as murder attempts. They're valid ways of building your PC, as valid as swinging a mace around, and you shouldn't have to sacrifice the ability to subdue people to get to cast PhK or Slay Living or whatever. It's absurd. Consider this policy: these spells subdue people.