Could KD effects be less boringly optimal?

[Egon the Monkey]

I've been in or around a few PvPs (and That Quest With the Grease) lately, and Grease and Knockdown seem to punch way above their weight now.
They just seem to hit and then well. You're screwed. Not even anything you can do to prebuff, as there's not a hard counter to either.
They were always good, but kind of stand out more against the current level of saves and supply. Because they bypass both quite handily.
Just search Grease on the Discord and see the amount of memeing and eye rolling about it.

Why do people hate Grease?

• It's a L1 spell that can outperform L3-4 disabling spells for anything other than a gank.
• Just compare it to Color Spray, or Gust of Wind.
• It's vs Reflex. A common Dump Save, as 90% of Reflex saves will not Just Stop You. And Reflex seems to be the weak save of most NPCs.
• It's pure Reflex and ignores Spell Resistance/Immunity. Most other disables have the drawback of being Mind, Fear or Negative, all of which there's decent gear and buffs against.
• Unlike Fear or Paralysis, the only counter move is to fireball your own ally 😲
• Similarly, why Horizakaul's Shout is so nasty. High DC, unblockable disable, plus damage. And targeting Sonic not Mind etc.

Grease dunks on both Enchanters and Necromancers

• Grease is the one disabling spell that can work on 95% of NPCs. Whereas lots of quest NPCs are immune to Mind spells and/or necromantic debuffs.
• Compare this to Mind spells. Which similarly will Fuck You Up. But have to get past Shell, Clarity, and/or an abundance of Mind/Fear Saves gear.
• You can face down a GSF enchanter as an 8 Wis barbarian just fine if you dunk a Clarity!
• Just make sure to reapply if you get dispelled. We have play and counter-play. It's pretty fun and proactive!

Similarly, Knockdown is brutally effective because:

• It's free to use. It's -4AB but you can do it forever with no cooldown, and it also does damage.
• AB boosters are more available than the +12 Discipline from Potions of Discipline. Which you can't prebuff with as it's not a Spell.
• The defence is a class skill many PCs don't have, but everyone has saves. NPCs seem to have worse AC but better saves than in earlier chapters.
• Some characters have worse saves, but we still get Martial PCs looted out with better Will than Fort 🤔.
• It's just uncommon enough to be useful. Stacking saves will protect you more reliably than stacking Discipline, so most PCs go for saves.
• It's one of the extremely few disables you might be able to get a Druid with.

How could KD be a bit more like other disabling effects?
I think, either nerf the supply a bit, or give it a stack of defences to beat in the same way as Mind spells?

• What if Grease did 1 Round Slow not 1 round KD? Still strong for a L1 but not a total lockdown.
• What if Expeditious Retreat granted Immunity: Knockdown for the duration? That seems on par with Clarity vs Mind spells, as Clarity lasts longer and removes effects too.
• Could Disarm, KD and Called shot be a check against Athletics instead? As that's not just the 'don't get KDed and die' skill.
• What if Knockdown/Disarm had a 12s cooldown like Taunt does now? This seems a popular mod on other servers.

[Vlaid]

It's very easy to be nearly immune to KD/combat moves without a discipline potion, just not for classes with discipline as cross-class. You just need to make slightly different gearing choices if that's something you want. There's options and choices to do it though.

Combat moves also give you -4 AB for using, so you're already making a sacrifice ontop of taking the feat to use them, sometimes you're giving up two feats and taking stats you don't want.

Grease might be too good but it's the same it's always been.

You can get like 20 discipline with almost zero investment pretty easily as a melee PC. You can get 26 with 1 buff and 1 aspect. You can get around 30 with making some slight gear adjustments.  You can even add in 2/4 piece of Brute for another 2/4 discipline if you want to go crazy about it. How much AB do you think people are having to make that hard to deal with? :P

Give up that 1 AB or whatever if you really think KD is that opressive.

[Father Time]

Arent you immune to grease with a blur potion now?

[Egon the Monkey]

Thanks Vlaid, some good points there. I hadn't considered the aspect stacking so much.
On reflection, I agree with you. I also think it supports my overall idea of:

• Disables kinda suck because you don't get a cool story out of losing to one. Theres no tension or risk. You either bounced the opener or Got Fucked.
• These are much better options than most other disables, as they are more reliable. Both for PVE and PVP.
• So I feel either they're fine and other ones are underpowered. Or they lack the counter-play other disables have been given by EfU.
• Consider how effective Clarity or Polarization are against their relevant disables, and how easily you can pump Mind saves
• Once again I've been nerd-sniped by the fascinating ways EfU's loot and quest design can massively affect how good Feats and Spells are, regardless of how powerful they might seem to be.

Grease and KD aren't unbeatable but they are absurdly good value

Give up that 1 AB or whatever if you really think KD is that oppressive.

I don't think KD effects are 'oppressive' so much as 'needlessly much better than similar options'.
Consider why Fight or Flight took a recent nerf.
KD (Feat) is good because combat moves are uncommon, but the opportunity cost of 'resist combat move' is high.
It's better than Disarm as it works on NPCs and stops PCs running away.

It's very easy to be nearly immune to KD/combat moves without a discipline potion... You just need to make slightly different gearing choices if that's something you want.

Very valid, and something that I think underlines the odd meta we have reached.

• It's unsatisfying to fight anything that is nigh-immune to stuff.
• NWN and EFU have always granted huge advantage to a buffed attacker
• Saves, Discipline, etc have become more available than ever and saves builds are very common.
• Which gives us a bit of a PvE arms race. Where one max 11 quest's threat level is in large part because Grease bypasses most defences.
• It also makes 'surprise attack and run away' even stronger. Because a buffed attacker is so hard to pin down, but a surprise KD or Grease has a very good shot at landing even on high reflex builds.

Discipline is expensive
Normal D&D rules are:
AB vs AC / DC vs Saves / Opposed Check where you both roll AB/Skill/Attribute

• NWN added AB vs Discipline. Which broke things because BAB is free.
• Yes, KD costs a Feat. But a Feat is normally only worth 3 Skill Points. Maxing Discipline costs 3-4 times that
• The attacker is rolling at -4 but with AB, a stat they already boosted to hit you with.
• The defender is rolling with a skill that has no other use but stopping combat moves.
• Imagine how broken Taunt would be, if it used your AB rather than a skill!

What might be more exciting to face?
Could it be better to lower the stakes of failing a save/Discipline check, rather than let PCs buy off their risk with save builds?
It's why Burst of Radiance is my very favourite spell. If you fail the save, blindness is bad but doesn't stop you acting. If you succeed, they still get to hit you with damage and a debuff! Same with Lunar Bolt being a save for half strength drain. They're always worth using, even vs a saves optimiser! Absolute genius design.

Watching a duel with a lot of back and forth and potion chugging is interesting. HP goes up and down, there's tension! A fight where one participant gets disabled and panel-beaten isn't. It's why DMs regularly jack up the CON and WIS on a possessed monster, so they won't go down to a single spell.

Grease didn't get better, everything else got less effective

Grease might be too good but it's the same it's always been.

Not quite. EfU did add that scary -2 Reflex debuff if you have SF. Otherwise, hard agree that it's still too good, and boring to get hit by as as it's a cheap total lockdown.
The DM team have modified a lot of spells including Grease. I trust them to have the skills to make it more fun. 
Even just making the KD only apply on Round 1-2 could do it.

Otherwise, you're right, Grease has stayed the same! But other disables have got comparatively weaker.

• Because it's easier to get saves, the flat DCs of trinkets/Tanglebags are rather beatable in PVP, especially against a prepared opponent.
• I keep finding martials who have equal or higher buffed Will than Fort. Because NPCs use stuff like Fear and Sound Burst that wrecks you if you fail.
• Especially in high-level content, a lot of monsters are Immune to Mind-Affecting. And at least 1 Gloom also applies Mind Immunity. only I think 2 quests have some Grease-immune NPCs.

Arent you immune to grease with a blur potion now?

Didn't seem to work when I was doing a quest full of Grease.