Crafting System Design Survey

[Kotenku]

HI! Before you start griping the obvious gripes, check the forum you're in. This is the Player Workshop, and I'm not asking whether this is something that would be worth doing, and I'm not suggesting that the DMs implement this. I'm soliciting ideas for a project that I'm considering working on, to benefit the server at large.

I have a few questions that I'd like some feedback on:

• If there were an EFU crafting system for things like weapons and armors, what would it look like?
• What pitfalls does it need to avoid?
• How can it avoid those same pitfalls?
• How accessible should the crafting system be?
• How good should the rewards be?

Traditionally, crafting systems in NWN (and other games) aim for something approximating realism and widely miss the mark. In Skyrim, if you craft 600 iron daggers you can work with god-metal. In (especially modded) Minecraft, in addition to having the resources to craft things, you need to construct increasingly specialized tools, workbenches, etc, in order to make useful things.
In Vulcano's NWN crafting system from way back when, crafting pretty closely followed PnP rules, requiring that you would farm resources, have access to a work-station, and across multiple rests, make a number of crafting skill rolls which could each potentially destroy your work, and at best would earn you "points" toward completing the item.
The result of this system was usually people running between inns and workbenches trying to finish their full plate (which took about 30 rest cycles), or mindlessly wandering the wilderness to mine (farm) ore from veins which only spawned in certain locations.

In short, a disaster.

So here are my thoughts:

OBJECTIVE:
A crafting system in EFU should de-emphasize farming as much  as possible, while encouraging exploration, discovery, and cooperation.

A crafting system, successfully implemented, would provide a valid avenue for characters to earn an income, in a setting where viable PC employment options can be counted on two hands.

Perhaps the most difficult requirement is developing a crafting system that contributes to the setting's story in a positive way.

DESIGN:
caveat: this is all theory-craft, nopromises, and nothing set in stone.
Metalworking and Smelting go hand in hand.
Smelting lays the ground work. In order to work metal, you need to smelt metal first.

In order to smelt, a PC will need a Forge. Forges are of varying quality (maximum temperature reachable), and require fuel, which can be mundane or magical. Temperature is a control for item quality. Some factions and associations may have access to forges - perhaps the city may also rent forges out for a nominal fee.

A forge works a lot like an alchemist table in that you put valid materials into the crucible; a base metal plus some modifier material, and can get a wide range of alloys which will convey different benefits to the final product.  Naturally, many combinations will ruin the materials put in, and successful combinations will require skill checks (The higher of the NWN Craft skills + EFUSS Smelting) to avoid ruin.

The effects of different types of smelted materials would affect things like the weight of the finished product, the product's susceptibility to metalworking improvements ( more on that later ), as well as the more obvious effects - a weapon crafted from silver would have a bonus against Shapechangers, Cold Iron against outsiders and fey.

Once an alloy is created, it needs to be poured into a mould. Crafting basic weapons is as straightforward as having enough of the dominant material available in the crucible and pouring it.

The most basic metals would be available in the wilderness for mining - Iron, copper, and carbon are reasonably commonplace, and not good for much besides mixing and experimenting.

Less common metals (eg. silver, lead, platinum) would not be available in the wild, instead requiring purchase (or plunder) from exotic locales.

The rarest metals of course, would have perhaps no scripted way to acquire at all (eg. mithral, adamantine, darksteel).

It would be possible to acquire base metals by melting down equipment found while adventuring (compare to 'Sundering' magical items for components). Most gear would be assumed to be made from Iron, unless it has a 'Material:' Property on it. Plot items would not be meltable, the system would require special handling for items with reduced or increased weight. Items of certain material types would still need a forge hot enough to be melted down.

Metalworking is a secondary process carried out on a newly crafted weapon, used to refine it and give it properties associated with craftsmanship, irrespective of the quality of its material - Sharpening swords, adding weight to hammers, adding spikes, runes, patterns, sockets (more on sockets in another post, maybe) - can confer a variety of significant bonuses (or penalties, on mistakes!) which, at the low end should mirror the quality of gear found in low-level quests, at the middle range should resemble set-piece tier equipment, and at the high-end (mithral, adamantine, and very-special alloys), should be on par with DM-loot.

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A word about accessibility:

It's not desirable for all PCs to have equal access to blacksmithing, just as it's not desirable for all PCs to have equal access to scrying or alchemy. The most important part of crafting weapons and armor has to do with having the tools and space needed to do the work. A Forge would be a substantial perk for factions and associations, and a master forge should be exceptionally hard to come by.

In this way the system avoids an over-saturation of PCs, while making certain that this sort of crafting cannot be done in (social) isolation.

Mining is relegated to being useful only for low-end recipes, making learning the system accessible without turning it into a matter of farming mineral spawn points.

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A word about farming:

Farming for items already exists in EFU in a number of forms. Lairs  require certain items be gathered in order to reinforce / level them up.  Alchemy requires (literally) farming herbs for use in recipes.  Placeables where Minerals can be mined already exist, and ideally this system would integrate those without fuss.
I'm not saying it's a positive thing, or that it's a desirable part of a good crafting system. I'm just saying that there is precedent.

Grinding is out of the question, and would hopefully be avoided altogether.

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I hope I've been clear to this point. This has taken altogether longer to write up than I expected, and there's still a great deal more that needs to be worked out and put down in words.

I understand there's a lot of (well-intentioned, and mostly fair) hostility toward the idea of a crafting system, and that there is likely to be a lot more of that in this thread. I hope you guys will bear with me and offer constructive thoughts. I firmly believe that crafting has a place in EFU, and that the key is in finding a form that fits EFU's balance of story vs gameplay in a compelling way.

[Zango_Unchained]

Suggestions would be to make the smelting system an intuitive alchemical system based, with the introduction of ore into the smelter in varying amounts and ways that make the metal produced different. Examples being,

Copper ore x3 + Zhurkh wood for the furnace= Copper bar

Copper ore x2 + Tin ore x1 + Zhurkh = Copper predominate bronze alloy.

Copper ore x2 + Tin orc x2 + Zhurkh = Tin predominate bronze alloy

Each metal would represent a variable,
Copper a known anathema to fey would give weapons +1 cold or fire damage against fey.
Iron when forged in the magical manner of Cold-Iron, which could also hijack Alchemy/herbalism system way of using spells to influence the system.

The smelting/smithing system would do good to simply follow the current standard of efu in using a system that semi-randomly produces results based on combinations.

The exception with a smithing/smelting system would be, that the smithing system would have to be set in stone "I am making this, these are my materials for making this, and now I put them together" based off say, Int/Str/Dex bonus on top of Concentration, while smelting is a cautious more random system of the binding of metals into strange alloys which each have their own distinct properties in weapons, from additional saves to racial damage with flat damage as well in higher tier alloy.

My thoughts at least.

There would be no "Farming level up" system with this, it would be based off a score of EFUSS + Character skill points and the construction and discovery of weapons and armor would be based off recipes which unlike alchemy would be much more closely guarded due to limited resources and profits to be made from arms and armor, which aren't expended trinkets that need to be bought often. This tied with long timers on creation would lead to a very interesting system.

[SatelliteMind]

Totally support this; PC merchants are great and need to be encouraged. I would emphasize a system that isn't focused on grinding aka going to one mineral desposit after enough to get X ore like Zango is.

[manyscruples]

While I don't think there should be a portable forge/workstation people can buy, it would be neat to have things like say, an abandoned duergar foundry or whatever, scattered about the module for people to use/fight over.  

I also hope there will be some ways to make items like barricades, archery targets, signs, siege equipment, and other fun stuff to help liven up the atmosphere.

[Zango_Unchained]

While I don't think there should be a portable forge/workstation people can buy, it would be neat to have things like say, an abandoned duergar foundry or whatever, scattered about the module for people to use/fight over.  

I also hope there will be some ways to make items like barricades, archery targets, signs, siege equipment, and other fun stuff to help liven up the atmosphere.

I second this,

Territories that are like lairs that have static placement in the server. Places you can upgrade and enhance, defend and hold. That use the lair system. But when an owner is killed and the place is ransacked it reverts to its old abandoned roots, perhaps slightly better off.

[SatelliteMind]

This sounds really intriguing and definitely would encourage player conflict.

[Kotenku]

Good thoughts, guys. Zango is right that the best way to implement this would probably be in a system very reminiscent of Alchemy. The trouble there is that it's a scripting task that would necessarily have to be done by the DMs. If someone were to design this system for them, it would have to be done entirely fresh from the ground up.

I'm also not convinced of the likelihood that conflict would stem directly from these forges, but it would certainly allow for more types of stories to develop.

Anyway, If a player were to design this system, I think it would be more likely to use static recipes (ie, recipes designed by the system's designer, not some algorithm), presumably with a straightforward and simple front-end that would allow whoever inherits the system on the DM side to add new recipes or remove old ones.

It would be great to allow for creation of those player-placeable objects (barricades, siege engines, etc) though I'm not sure how they'd fit in to the metalworking system I've outlined.
A separate system based around engineering functional objects would certainly be cool, but I haven't got the faintest inkling of what that would look like, short of being another system that looks just like Alchemy and Herbalism.

[SatelliteMind]

Please make this happen :D

[Rutergin]

Something I find not addressed is the interaction between players. While I like the idea of crafting, something I've always wanted to try and delve in, there has to be some sort of community feeling in getting your crafts done. If one single player can do all of smelting, metalworking, and so on and so forth, it is very limited in working with other players. If he can do everything on his own, it denies the opportunity to create relations and uphold an actual business in EFU.

Implementing this as it currently stands would merely have players go from node to node farming all the ore they need and then building whatever craft. The forge idea is a smart one, but a singular player can still operate on his own. My suggestion is to make it slightly more complicated, where it requires the work of other players to aid in your crafts. You mentioned adding in sockets / runes / magical attributes, which is a fine idea, but let's take it a step further- force the craftsmen to go to other players who actually commit to enchanting / socketing your crafts, so that they cannot singularly make stronger weapons. Maybe an addition to EFUSS, where if you take mining / smelting / metalworking, you could not take the additional skill enchanting or have the ability to socket your own weapons.

Mostly I do not want to see a repetition of singular play like it currently stands with alchemy / the lair system. It is not very fun or interesting to see players operate on their own to enhance themselves through the already implemented systems, but with some standards set in place to prohibit singular activity in crafting it may help with immersion and make an interesting addition to the server.