Exploring and navigation...

[MrGrendel]

There've been a few mods in the past that had random area generator, including an official release that was based on it, more or less. I'm pretty sure that EfU also has had some areas with variable transitions. And of course, some of the current transitions are supposed to represent much longer stretches of terrain.

Now that we have so much new material to explore, not to mention the intriguing possibilities I heard mentioned with "ship travel," we could combine these things to make exploring and sailing a little more interesting. How you ask?

Simply make a few "lost in wilderness" areas, corresponding to the basic terrain types they'll be linked from. You enter them whenever you fail a check moving from one wilderness transition to another - and to get back to the area you started from, you have to move through this one first. The "actual" wilderness areas could probably be a little tamer in terms of hostile creatures, with most of the more nasty stuff in the "lost" areas...

What will this do? Spice up any trips done without a decent guide! And make having those hairy woodsman coots along much more desirable when you're going for a trip to timbuktu. This can apply to ship travel too, if it's put in! -and maybe be the cause for some unintended trips to really "interesting" *cough*deadly*cough* locations... ;)

And of course this would work well in conjunction with an implementation of the survival skill, since that's the skill which is supposed to be used for finding your way around in nature. n_n

Not to mention that it would add a little of the unknown! Maybe every once in a while even the most skilled trail-blazer could get lost, and when -they- get lost, you have a chance of finding something neat, instead of the random, hostile areas you usually find... This makes the mod retain a little mystery even when you think you might have explored everything already. ;)

And...! It could make the mod feel a lot bigger, even without adding many areas at all. Not to mention that taking a good guide truly could make a trip much easier, and magically shorter. :D

[AKMatt]

I think this would be a really great idea.  I looked at Grendel's thread about implementing the survival skill using craft weapon or craft armor, and while I think that could be good, it might also be a good idea to just use the same calculation that is currently used for tracking, since tracking is supposed to represent being wilderness-savvy, and going this route will not "rip off" people who have already made guides and trackers and should probably be pretty good at finding their way around in the wilderness.

Using one of these unused skills for ship navigation might be cool, though.  It makes sense to separate ship navigation from the usual tracking skills, because although the same components (spot, search, lore) apply, it really is an entirely different field of expertise.

[Cruzel]

It is possible to make a system based on rotating  area transits, which shift their destination based on an integer which is randomly assigned each minute, 2 minutes, etc.  You can essentially make a maze which is never the same, and impossible to metagame using this system.

Adding a command to /c to roll a skill check and then compare it with a Dm chosen value to see if they 'recognize' the area, and can choose the proper transit.

It's a somewhat complex system, but is perfectly possible to make, and would be very awesome for  say.. thick jungle areas, labyrinths, etc.

[MrGrendel]

AKMatt - there would be no reason afaik that you couldn't allow the system to use the better of two skill checks: the old system compared to a Survival skill.
 
For the navigation thing - if transitions could be used to create a new exploration system, ie the random "lost in the wilds" areas, and if this also applied to sea travel - yes, I think it might be worth it to seperate navigation entirely. I would still have both extra skills used - one craft skill for survival, which would cover all the ideas on land... and one craft skill for navigating, which would allow you to navigate on the sea and (just like survival) allow you to not get lost on land as well.
 
Cruzel - Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking. Except the script checks your survival skill (or navigate) automatically, and if failed, sends you to a "Lost" area. The exit item, on the other end of the area, is set to send you back to whence you came. :) (Or rather, it checks the skill of the party leader, and your whole party travels according to it.)

[SlarrikVilbiss]

What happens when one person in a party fails the check, and the rest of them succeed? Does one person automatically transition to a "lost" area, and his party members transition to the correct area? You need to think, usually in a transition, you're moving into the next area, which is a foot away. You wouldnt loose your companions that fast.

[MrGrendel]

What happens when one person in a party fails the check, and the rest of them succeed? Does one person automatically transition to a "lost" area, and his party members transition to the correct area? You need to think, usually in a transition, you're moving into the next area, which is a foot away. You wouldnt loose your companions that fast.

(Or rather, it checks the skill of the party leader, and your whole party travels according to it.)

[Cruzel]

It is possible to make a trigger that spans around the transit in question, each PC whoenters triggers a check.  the first PC to enter sets an integer then makes a check.  the integer resets in say.. 30 seconds.  Any PC's who  enter the trigger within the 30 seconds, also make checks. If one or all of them succeed,  when clicking the transit they are sent to the proper location. if they all fail, they are 'lost'.

After the 30 seconds and the integer resets,  any stragglers run the risk of getting lost.


Also it is important to note, transits can also represent vast distances. Sometimes it is not feasable to add 5 areas to represent miles of walking, when you can just make one transit and add flavor text.

[MrGrendel]

Agree about the 5 areas per transit, Cruzel. This would be more like 5-10 areas for the entire mod, though. Just make them semi-generic, and use them for transits in similar terrain...

[Snoteye]

Extremely difficult to implement in a feasible way. Transporting more than one person to a given destination, regardless of means, unfortunately requires using a very unreliable set of instructions. In practice, it makes suggestions like these virtually impossible to implement, however much I agree a little randomness here and there could be interesting.

[dragonfire9000]

If possible, this would be absolutely amazing.

And Cruzel: Stop being all intelligent, you're making us look bad. :p

[MrGrendel]

Extremely difficult to implement in a feasible way. Transporting more than one person to a given destination, regardless of means, unfortunately requires using a very unreliable set of instructions. In practice, it makes suggestions like these virtually impossible to implement, however much I agree a little randomness here and there could be interesting.

I see. Then I would propose this, you travel the transition individually, but it checks your party's guide's skill to see where the entire party makes it to. Of course it would have to check it only once at the beginning, to make sure everyone either gets lost together, or arrives together.

[Snoteye]

Incidentally, that is wherein the problem lies. The default GetFactionLeader() is very faulty.

[Nickless]

Wouldn't it be possible to do it in a way similar to the way boats are implemented? Where the scout/guide initiates the dialogue, and the whole party is transitioned. You should make it clear that only the person leading the party should initiate dialogue.

[Snoteye]

You may have noticed that boats are ridiculously buggy.

[MrGrendel]

Hmm. Then! How about having players set the "get lost" toggle on the transition for 5 minutes at a time for the next players to follow. This would also allow shadowers to follow them wether they end up lost or not.
 
An additional toggle in player options "Never follow recent trails" might be good for trailblazers too then.