Expertise and Improved Expertise

[Mort]

How would people feel if there was a way (a thrown item such as a tanglefoot bag but different and more expensive) for monsters or other players to disable Expertise Mode/Improved Expertise Mode of another player.

Example: "You throw an sack of magic dust in the eyes of someone -- it distracts them -- they lose expertise/improved expertise until they reactivate it manually."

"Similarly, a type of monster can throw a special new attack that doesn't do any damage but distract PCs and make them break expertise/improved expertise"

Please make your arguments clear and succinct. Discuss.

[Listen in Silence]

If the goal is reality, then it makes sense.

[Relinquish]

Will it have a save of some sort?

[Random_White_Guy]

PC vs. Monster I'd say not so much. For the first time ever I'm playing a character who not only uses Expertise, but embraces it. Its surprisingly fun to RP, and it brings in alot of fun stuff I never thought about when playing (Since I rarely play line).

There are times where your party has to retreat and the only way you all can survive is with some well placed expertise. If, as a frontliner, your entire line breaks, You're left fighting alot of stuff and that makes life difficult. Perhaps even impossible if they throw anti-expertise stuff your way.

Slightly off topic, but on the issue of "Monsters with more stuff" I'd much rather see monsters with more See Invis.

Wizards buffing then going an entire quest while invisible without adding anything to the party (Even if its just barking orders/tactics, using healing wands etc, that's fine), but folks just prebuffing the party then hiding while invisible without taking risk, is something that bugs me far more than expertise/improved expertise.

Back on topic,

I believe for PC vs PC it would be cool to see (We all know how Expertise vs. Expertise duels are), but overall isn't that imperative.

Fighting someone who has expertise up also gives you +5 or +10 AC after all (Since, afterall, they lose -5 or -10 AB) You just have to fight smarter, not harder to beat them.

A Magic bullet to completely null a feat isn't something I'd like to see implimented. I'd much rather see PC's coming up with creative means to defeat it rather than simply blanking it out.

[ScottyB]

It should similarly be possible to de-toggle Power Attack, Dirty Fighting, Parry, Defensive Casting, Detect, Stealth, and any other "modes" I've forgotten. This is a neat concept from City of Heroes/Villains - and really awesome for PvP.

Furthermore, loot that allows you to ignore certain de-toggles would be great. They should be amulets, armor, or maybe anything other than rings (since you can wear two of those), so that you have to decide between stats or security.

[Luke Danger]

For PvP, I like it. For PvE, not so much.

I'd like to see methods where in PvP, it's not a case of who has more pots or a better pwr build, but who has tactics. So making this avalible to PC's is a good idea, it should be rare, but -very- useful.

[AfroMullet]

I'd like to see methods where in PvP, it's not a case of who has more pots or a better pwr build, but who has tactics. So making this avalible to PC's is a good idea, it should be rare, but -very- useful.

If they are rare, then once again, it is a case of who is better supplied. They should be accessible easily enough so that those who have more playtime do not have an unfair advantage over those who do not.

Personally, I do not like this idea. An item that negates a feat seems to be very powerful. If there is an item to negate such a feat, why shouldn't there be items that take away the spellcasting ability of a wizard, or other abilities that help a class survive.

[Nihm]

agree with REquiem, just another loot to have for PvP along with the 20 different potions and wands you need to have, please have a printable form you can checkmark to see if you're pvp ready.
 
Much better if Expertise and Imp. were adjusted for the server level range so that they gave 3 and 6 AC instead of 5 and 10.

[Egon the Monkey]

If there is an item to negate such a feat, why shouldn't there be items that take away the spellcasting ability of a wizard, or other abilities that help a class survive.

Ever seen the oh so common...
Warrior's Shield Of Silence
15 Lbs
2AC
Improved Sonic Saves+2
10 Charges
Silence (3) 1 charge/use.

Pick up from trash, find caster, beat them over the head while giggling at their lack of spell usage. :P

But as Req said, rare stuff that can swing a fight is a bit of a bugger for a lot of players. I'd go so far as to say that rare consumables like TS and Stoneskin pots can really give a heavy edge. If it exists and it's not completely epic, everyone should me able to have one in reserve (even if its expensive to) if you aim for balance.

I'd like to see more cheap things that are only useful in certain situations, but are powerful then so it's a case of "the right device in the right place" not "find where TS pots drop and whore that quest"

Thinking about this though: You sacrifice one round (throwing the bomb) to knock a character out of expertise for (probably) one round before they swap it back. You'll get one shot at them with lower AC in exchange for them getting a free shot at you when you're spending a round bombing them. Doesn't seem OP in a 1v1, but would be useful if you outnumber them. Although in that case, you have the edge anyway.

I would like to see perhaps an "anti-stealth marker bomb" that lets you bring someone out of hiding. It would have limited use compared to just walking up and hitting them until they run off, but might be useful for non-violently pointing out an eavesdropper.

Folks just prebuffing the party then hiding while invisible without taking risk, is something that bugs me far more than expertise/improved expertise.

If you're playing a wizard or sorc who's not built to be tough as nails and keep combat spells handy, that's often the only safe (and IC, if every single mob in the QA can kill you easily) thing to do. That said, every wizard I've played has had crossclass skills and/or Heal to enable them to perform some other role than spells. (Ahmed picks locks and plays medic).

See Invis would be terrifying for anyone trying to escape, as Invis is more reliable that running away, since monsters ALWAYS cross a transition before you as they have no load time.

[ScottyB]

Against wizards there's dispel (lots of dispel-charged items, too, at least when I was playing) plus the fact that they're squishy. INT poison is also a killer for them (and they tend to have low fort. saves).

We're not talking about "strip the feat away from them" - we're talking about switching it from the "on" position to the "off" position. Next round, as long as they notice it's down, they can flip it back up (which is something wizards can't do when they're dispelled - at least, not for free, since they need to cast all over again). For an attacker to turn it back off, the attacker needs to use more resources again, while their opponent can just keep turning their feat back on.

Also, adjusting Expertise has been suggested before; but it's not possible.

[Jayde Moon]

I think this is a GREAT idea.  The ability to remove Expertise, which requires you to put at least 5 points in what is (for a lot of warriors) a dump stat and takes up one or two feats (which is half of your feats if you are a wizard), is freakin awesome.

Especially since using this feat comes with absolutely no drawbacks inherent within itself (like the inability to hit something otherwise equally armored).  

In fact, why stop here?  We should continue down this path and create ways to neutralize ALL of those feats.  What are feats?  They're a dime a dozen!  Fighters have so many feats, they just start throwing them away on ignorant stuff.

A way to disable those pesky weapon proficiencies would be nice.  I've always been really annoyed (especially in PvP) that people can hit me with weapons.

You know what else is annoying?  Weapon finesse.  Srsly, following the same logic, we should be able to neutralize this as well.  I HATE people who don't put points in Str being able to hit me as often as if they had.  What kind of BS is that?
[/sarcasm]
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Seriously, though:

I know everybody hates Expertise and Imp Expertise cause it makes people really annoying to hit (especially in PvP)... but it's a viable method of building your character that takes up one or two feats, has an ability requirement, and tosses on a hefty AB penalty.  People who pick these feats shouldn't be punished by some sort of feat targeting ability, property, or item.

Magic Eye Dust feels like it should remove x points of Dodge AC across the board.Something that causes a distraction should distract everyone, not just people who are 'fighting defensively' (which is what expertise boils down to).

If implemented, it should require both an attack roll AND allow a save (probably a will save).  (Or allow a reflex save AND a will save (no attack roll in this instance)).  Also draw an AoO.

Or simply cause blindness.

Here's some canon Magic Dust and what it does.

[Letsplayforfun]

Neat in pvp, if there's some way to resist it (discipline/concentration check?).

Not useful otherwise, as E and IE always toggle on/off in the middle of a fight, which gets the pc in more trouble than he's prepared to face, sometimes.

[Caddies]

Fully support in both PvP and PvE.

I do think there should be a reflex save, similar to tanglefoot though.

[Mort]

Drama.

You guys are overdramatizing an item-charge that remove expertise for one round (or until the user reactivate it). It would just require people to be more active rather than hit IE and go get a Soda.

Do note that e/ie is one of the few things that gets nerfed with 3.5 .

This change wouldn't nerf it. Probably be barely visible and It doesn't make it OBSOLETE in any way.

Similarly, in PvP, removing expertise for one round would only be effective if you had a group to follow through since using an item takes 1 round so the other dude could just re-activate it.

I'd suspect a concentration/discipline check would probably be the thing to counter this effect.

Cut the drama, please.

[Caddies]

I suggest that it deactivates E/IE for two rounds, concentration check of 15-20.