Summon Duration

[WaterMonster]

This really should be boosted, wether for SF: or GSF: Conjuration or not. I am not saying they should last hours, but 3 rounds/level is too short.  Even 5 or 6 rounds a level would be better.

Yes, summons are incredibly useful and they can be spammed to hell. But that doesn't change the fact that they do not last very long. Sure, for the lower level quests this is absolutely fine, they do not need to last long because most themes can absolutely rock the low level quests.

But once you start getting up to the LONG quests, Like orcs, Sinister Enclave, And most DM quests meant for higher levels - You see just how very un-useful summons can be.

You only get so many spells per day, Summons can't buff by themselves and don't last long enough to make it worth give them potions.  Their AI sucks and gets in the way, often making them bunch up uselessly if you have more than one.  Some summons are ridiculously powerful, but those summons are higher levels, that players will be able to summon 3-4 times/day if that.  

The average level 7 will get between 15-24 summons or so per day.

That is 31.5 minutes at minimum of summon time in total (For 15 summons) ASSUMING the summons do not die, and they are summoned one at a time.  That number looks really great, except when you consider most of those summons are level 1-2, making htem incredibly weak. They die very fast, and on the higher end quests are pretty much just fodder to distract monsters from PCs (For what.. 5 seconds, if that?)

Given the fact that they cannot buff, are incredibly weak(in general, I know some themes are amazing), and their AI sucks - I think lasting longer is a very small thing to ask.  5-6 rounds per level at minimum, but I would ask for at least 7-8 rounds/level.  

They don't need to last forever, just longer than they do now.

[VanillaPudding]

I'd like to see their duration extended by quite a bit. Perhaps a minute / level like some spells, while reducing the amount that can be summoned to maintain the balance wished for.

[Letsplayforfun]

I used to wish something like that,but the new summonin system with multi-summons makes up nicely for the lack of duration, imo. And you can always extend the spell duration.

[VanillaPudding]

Even with extend spell, conjurers are severely lacking compared to other casters.

[Snoteye]

I wish the only thing that affected summons was spell school. =(

[WaterMonster]

I used to wish something like that,but the new summonin system with multi-summons makes up nicely for the lack of duration, imo. And you can always extend the spell duration.

Yes, summons are incredibly useful and they can be spammed to hell. But that doesn't change the fact that they do not last very long.

Even with extend spell, conjurers are severely lacking compared to other casters.

Extend spell makes it even worse. It's a traeoff between summoning a weak summon that lasts a decent while, and a good one that doesn't.



All we need is a 3-4 round boost/level. Please.

[Echigo]

I am definitely in favour of this! I mean, at least allow this for the SF and GSF: Conjuration mages/clerics, you know? >_>

[Johannes]

Oh, come now. As if Conjuration mages are all about the summons!

Need I remind you of Mestil's Acid Sheath? Melf's Acid Arrow? Web? Evard's Black Tentacles? Conjuration has some of the greatest number of spells affected by the GSF and SF feats associated with it of all the spell schools.

In my humble opinion, the summoning durations are fine just the way they are. Summons are not intended to dominate entire quests: they provide a short distraction in combat during crucial moments.

[Nightshadow]

I am in favor of this, I have played a ton of summoners and compared to other 'normal' casters they have all sucked. I think that if you have SF and GSF (Conj) as well as extend spell, all your summons should last 10 rounds/level (1 min/lvl). Now people would have to invest a lot of feats into this, but the advantage would be pretty awesome.

[dragonfire9000]

Just stop. Right now. There's a great old animation of a man beating a dead horse that someone posted a while ago, but I can't find it, so boo.

But seriously. Give up.

[Semli]

PnP summoning by default has always been pretty weak.  I recall reading a post on some 3.5 board where a DM lamented all the extra levels and feats he needed to make a respectable summoner bad guy for the PCs to oppose.  On that basis, I would support a small extension of all summon spells.

Also keep in mind that in PnP you have the option when casting a Summon spell to intentionally draw weaker creatures in order to randomly summon more of them.  This gives you a bit more crowd control with a single spell, even if the creatures are laughably weak in whatever situation you place them into.  Instead of all this extended duration nonsense on creatures with no AC and so-so HP, I would go as far as to say make summoning reagents randomly summon more creatures based off of their rarity and cost.  While I realize some of the reagents can power summons up pretty obnoxiously, I am much more interested in the crowd control aspect of summoning.  Such a suggestion not only powers up a relatively weak school of spells but creates more demand for IG items, leading to a stronger economy.

Mechanically speaking, summoning remains a poor choice for wizards and sorcerers who survive on their spells alone.  In my experience, summon spells are much better utilized by characters who have some utility without expending their slots, like clerics and druids.

[Yalta]

A well built summoner mage will rock. As Johannes said some of the nastiest offensive spells are conjuration (evard anyone?) and you get multiple summons, add in the spellcraft bonus and you cab be very powerful indeed.

[Egon the Monkey]

I still got bored of my conjuration sorc, but more due to the innate base summon theme weakness (now fixed for sorcs, if not wizards) and lack of duration. I'd like anything that makes more active mage builds get used more as opposed to "buff and then don't cast".

Having the summons stick around would make it feel more like "I HAVE A HORDE!" than "occasionally I make a CAT turn up!"

EDIT: SPELLCRAFT bonus? Didn't know that.

[Gippy]

Johannes is right. Conjuration is hot stuff.

[Secutor]

In spite of Conjuration's other powerful spells, short summon durations still hamper characters who are designed as minion masters. If longer durations would afford the conjuration school two feasible sub-types (minion master and offensive caster) who are relatively equal in ability and up to par with other builds, then I say lengthen the durations.

I'm all for players who seek a challenge in mechanically disadvantageous builds, but when we have numerous build possibilities on par with each other in quest-ability, then all you get is more variety! That's a good thing, says I. There are always ways to self-cripple those builds if you want...

Personally, I'm tired of seen a majority of mages acting as consumable factories or walking buff stations. If we could give little perks to those who opt for other methods of play, I'd have no complaints.