a real issue

[Letsplayforfun]

Only critical remark I have, I find the discourse concerning this to be rather schizophrenic on EFU;A. As I understand the culture you are cultivating, the ideal player is daring both in terms of RP and mechanical challenges; he chooses "wacky" feats (that make sense for his character) and favors odd weapons, yet he also fully embraces the arcade game aspects of NWN as he throws himself into the fray without concern for limbs and/or perma-death. Now, that's a tall order!
Kjetil

So true.

One thing that sticks out on forums is "hey this is a rp server" (ex: Howland, Stern), and then suddenly: "stop whining, it's an action server" (ex: Wiggy, Mort). Howlands post on 'hard quest' is crystal clear.

Now to some players, either EfU vets, or older players, or whatever, there is no opposition between 'rp' and 'action'. But obviously, to others, it's a real hard balance to achieve, and sometimes i find the elitist tone of some answers more condescending than helpful.

And it does impact the server, for exemple: of all existing factions, how many player factions have actually mattered without either:
-   a powerbuild at their side
-   close dm suprevision
-   or a veteran player leading?
Faction goals are important. Faction leader survival is as important.

It does impact the community. I’ve at the very least 3 players who told me they don’t want to post on forums anymore, because they feel they always get the same answers, but no hints on how to get better. I’m not even counting those who quit when they get the answer ‘if it’s too harsh, you can play elsewhere’.

It does impact DM attention. Either because some will simply overlook the “quest trains”, even though there’s some fun rp going on in there too. Or because players will try funny builds and get killed so quickly they’ll never attract attention.

It does impact player and DM mutual respect: between those players that can shrug of an unlucky death, and those that will spam party chat with whining. Between those who’d like to conflict but who are afraid to see it through to pvp because it’s seem like wasting 3 month of something you’ve tried to build if you fail. Between those who have sucky builds but master the engine sufficiently to pull something off, and those who have sucky builds and, well, tough luck. Etc.

What it does in the end is generate the feeling that only a few excellent player can actually achieve something on EfUA, while others at best will have a good moment once in a while. What it does is come back to the same old thread saying “rp is a reward in itself”, when in fact, it isn’t, because this is AD&D, not theater impro.

So to the point of this post: obviously, what's your thoughts on that? And second, how can we help players find that balance?

For example: to be able to balance rp and action, concerning death: learn to 'get over it quickly'. As long as dying pisses you off, you'll have a hard time on EfU. When you do learn to shrug that "unlucky fugue" off, you can make sucky builds that die, and enjoy the game at the same time.

Or: if you make a sucky build, don't try to spamm quests, because you will die. Sucky build rely on good teamwork to survive. Spamming quest means risking going with unreliable teamates, unless your build is part of a faction. If you have a sucky individualist build, tough luck.

Or: there’s actually nothing that stops you from having a good build with good RP. If you feel DM will overlook you because you’ve a ‘powerbuild’, you’re wrong. Some might. Most won’t. And should you ever feel overlooked, don’t hesitate to app for whatever: even if the answers no, at least it draws attention to something you’re planning.

Or: if you have a sucky build, it’s because you’ve a plan for it. Is there a way for you to achieve that plan without the need for direct conflict? If you’re making a clown, you don’t need to get to lvl7. The spellcasting classes are special they have that lvl4 (or 5) spell they all want to reach. But do you really need it?

Or: have you ever thought your build was sucky on some occasions, and great in others? Clerics rock against undead, they suck against dispeling foes. Rogues are great, but not against undead. A wizard is great so long as he’s got spells. Why waste all your spells on bugs the frontliners will swipe anyways? Your 8 Con/14 WIS  warrior should he behave like a 14CON/ 8WIS warrior? You’ve a bard with non-combat spells: why is he questing like a fighter-bard, and not singing along all the way? On that note: you are NOT leaching when you’re a sucky build tagging along but bringing life to the quest train. And so on.

Or: .. your turn people.

Bottom line is: for players: EfUA is harsh, harsher on weaker builds, so you better know why you’re making that weaker build. For DMs: understand that for some players, balance between an rp server while being a hardcore harsh action server is really tough.

My 2c. Er- make it a dollar.

[TheImpossibleDream]

Can't think of one major successful faction that had any successful powerbuild characters really.

Let's throw out some examples of decent characters:

 Zau Low con, +2 ecl race with +2 int +2 cha, a fighter, incredibly powerful and feared despite it.

Ghyrrt, Goblin -2 str -2 cha race, small so no decent large weapons, barbarian/bard, again massive disadvantage in the build itself but the player did incredibly well.

Kainth, Barbarian, loin cloth, high wisdom (I think that was his gimmick anyway!) a focus on a high will save, again he did incredibly well.

The idea is not for you to make a character with one leg who is a kick boxxer. Simply put better characters are reasonably powerful without being outright powerbuilds. You do NOT have to take feats to weaken your character to make it more interesting. At the same time you don't always have to take that feat to make your character more powerful.

The key is balance, try to give your character quirky stats that fit with your concepts, while maintaining other stats that would be important to his class.

Remember your character ic'ly chose his class and most people choose to embrace what they are best at, so you're very unlikely to find a 8 con fighter realistically as he wouldn't have the fortitude to go through the training! Nor a 12 int wizard as he probably just couldn't cut it, though there are certainly exceptions!

[Nuclear Catastrophe]

I’m not even counting those who quit when they get the answer ‘if it’s too harsh, you can play elsewhere’.

I was guilty of that, big style.  It's not very fair on people to say such things, and if I've been overly harsh with anyone in the past I apologise.

[Mort]

I'm not sure how you are looping me in this "Hey, it's an action server." --- I'd rather see TEN times the creative well roleplayed character than crushbots smashing quests.

I think you are confounding RISK with ACTION. I like people who do roleplay that has meaningful/interesting consequences.

But I do also enjoy roleplay that is very deep, prepared and involving which can or cannot have consequences.

And I understand, it's a tall order, but lots of people have been able to fill it. Maybe not with their first nor second character, but eventually, if you dont become hopeless about it, you'll get 'it'.

I'm going to close this as well since it's a spillover from the other topic.