Sleep

[ExileStrife]

What would be the point of having monsters if you can just sleep and CDG them?

[Dr Dragon]

Heres an idea put people to sleep by b eating them in the head with a club rather then lame spells.

[The Crimson Magician]

I still don't see how this is applied from an RP standpoint.

"Ohohoho, I am level 5, and your spells of sleep and eye-inducing decay shall not harm me, foul enchanter!"

"Fucking shit."

[ExileStrife]

Nobody gets tired after level 5, idiot.

[N/A]

The higher your level is, the manlier you are. The manlier you are, the less that kind of stuff affects you. Real men don't take shit from anyone, including spells. Like Brian Boitano.

[Mort]

It's a mass  disable spell. It's extremely useful for low level pvps and low level quests.

Its normal that it becomes useless at higher levels... obviously. If you notice, mass disable spells that are not restricted by levels are ... stonehold , level 6 druid spell, and mass charm , level 8 wizard spell. Those were the ones that came to mind, stonehold isn't really since it has continuous effect but mass charm is the same deal... and as you can see, its quite high level magic.

[Box]

Stinking cloud, level 2. Cloud of bewilderment level 3. Choking powder/flashpowder.
 
Not really high level spells.

[BrittanyPanthas]

Each of the spells you listed carries a degree of risk should you engage the person caught inside in melee combat.

Its not the same thing.

[Box]

I'm pretty sure Stonehold lets them attack too. And Mass Charm only stops them from attacking you in PVM, and in PVP they can still drink potions and stuff, so it's really just a higher level, longer lasting Daze.


Sorry, why are they being used as examples when they are totally different spells from sleep? Here's the thing about sleep - As soon as you hit them they wake up, after level 4 there is no more coup de grace and there is no coup de grace against PCs ever. While these other spells will all run their duration, sleep only lasts a few rounds and as soon as you hit them the spell ends.

Why are we comparing them again?

[BrittanyPanthas]

There are so many advantages to disabling a PC until you hit them with damage that its not even worth listing them here.

[Box]

Each of the spells you listed carries a degree of risk should you engage the person caught inside in melee combat.

Its not the same thing.

So does sleep, So I think it is the same thing Alyssara.

I don't even know what we're argueing about anymore. Sleep will disable them for like  3 rounds + 1 / caster level or until pretty much anything hits them.  Keep in mind the DC is lower than hold person and every other spell listed here for 'comparison'. And for those spells, you can actually hit them while they are disabled!

So really if you're going to compare it to other spells you should at least pick ones that are relative.

Also to touch this point -

...(Snip)Sleep is useful in low level pvp and low level quests

Is just plain inaccurate.  I can think of maybe three low level quests with enough monsters that have less than 5 HD to make this spell worth using in anything other than a cheap questloot wand,  monsters generally are higher level/have their HP jacked up for balance reasons because they are fighting groups and stuff.

It -can- be useful, but to say it is 'extremely' usefull would be like saying ScottyB is an 'extremely' hard worker and I am 'extremely' polite and and 'extremely' easy to get along with!

[Drakill Tannan]

ExileStrifre is right in that, if NPC are afected by sleep and coup de graced then sleep becomes incredibly powerfull. However, if i don't recall wrong, there were some creatures who you could cast sleep on, but would not suffer from coup de grace... i could be wrong about this, but if it is true, then making more monsters this level could balance it a bit, it makes them sleep, but does not put them in risk of death, also it doesn't mess with PvP.

Can the coup de grace be modified? or is it hardcoded?

[Professor Death]

As a mage player, I have to say that sleep is pretty useless in my experience.  Even at low levels I don't bother to take it anymore because it seems every time I was in a situation where it might have been useful, the monsters were immune for one reason or another (level, and/or immune to mind affecting spells).

[Egon the Monkey]

It's a lousy spell to cast compared to other L1s, since it doesn't scale at all well to multiple targets despite being an AoE. It is rather useful though to fire off from the many items that cast it, into a combat full of your L5+ chars. There are enough things under L5 that I like having Sleep gear on my PCs.

Oh, and Mort? You missed Fear as a L4 mass disable. How can you miss Fear? It's *fun* to send Orc Berzerkers fleeing in terror for a change of loincloth :D.

Finally, Sleep affects 4+1D4 HD of creatures. As far as I can tell, a  L5 would need to make a save. A L6 would need to make a save if the die roll was a 2 or more, a l7 if it was a 3 or more, and a L8 if it was a 4 or more. That would be like an extra save. Not exactly overpowered.

[Egon the Monkey]

It's a lousy spell to cast compared to other L1s, since it doesn't scale at all well to multiple targets despite being an AoE. It is rather useful though to fire off from the many items that cast it, into a combat full of your L5+ chars. There are enough things under L5 that I like having Sleep gear on my PCs. As for GDG, it only works on something under 4HD anyway. Remember stuff over 5 HD can be sent to sleep via onhit sleep properties.

Oh, and Mort? You missed Fear as a L4 mass disable. How can you miss Fear? It's *fun* to send Orc Berzerkers fleeing in terror for a change of loincloth :D.

Finally, Sleep affects 4+1D4 HD of creatures. As far as I can tell, a  L5 would need to make a save. A L6 would need to make a save if the die roll was a 2 or more, a l7 if it was a 3 or more, and a L8 if it was a 4 or more. That would be like an extra save. Not exactly overpowered.