Sleep

[Nufferz]

Anyone here ever used sleep wands from invisible on goblins and ogres? Sleep is a freaking level 1 spell that is area of affect and can amount to a massively high save if invested in GSF. If you want to use a disabling spell like that, level up to achieve i dunno:

CONFUSION/FEAR/WHATEVER THE HELL ELSE

You know what sleep does? it isn't just about disabling the opponent for that one attack, it is about disabling them and getting a ridiculous amount of time to prepare for that first hit by chugging massive pots.

[derfo]

"guys i can't smell out a significant use for a spell instantly so buff it"

please stop shitty joke suggestions with outrageous arguments

[Egon the Monkey]

If sleep were more useful at higher levels, then pretty much any wizard could turn into a mass knockout machine.

Ever see Ahmed on the original Orcs 1? I used to use buffed, SFed Colour Sprays to stun half a horde. A wizard CAN be a KO machine with that. Doesn't last as long, range isn't as good, but way more effective.

[ScottyB]

The problem isn't that the spell can be used in a niche scenario, it's that it doesn't have a use outside the niche. Good game design makes an option valuable by making the options useful except in a few narrow applications (resistance to a damage type, for example); or alternatively, making all options only useful in specific situations. (However, that alternative becomes bad game design if players take turns being useful instead of being useful together.)

So we have some spells that are always good to learn, and some that require someone to be exceptionally talented and almost precognizant to make them valuable. That is the problem that results in suggestions like this.

[Nufferz]

sleep let's you get off the CDG, it is not the same thing as color spray. color spray also must be cast at a closer distance which does put the caster in the mix of the fight potentially causing some trouble for them.

[ScottyB]

Although...

• CDG only works on level 4 or lower NPCs, changing nothing where CDG and Sleep are concerned
• The more creatures in the AOE, the fewer will likely be affected, because if you roll a 7, and there's three level 4s in the AOE, you can only affect one (the first creature takes up 4 HD, leaving 3 HD that can't be "spent" on anything available)
• Sleep can affect friendlies; the AOE can be made to affect any HD-worth of non-hostiles, separate from the HD-based pool intended for enemies

[Nufferz]

• So it gives you a CDG against all level 4 or lower monsters affected while still putting those other monsters to sleep.

• Now you're talking about rolling but what is being suggested is to remove the cap making rolling irrelevant to those affected.

• And yes it affects friendlies but so do color spray, fear, confusion, sound burst, stinking cloud, etc. Sleep is just a level 1 spell.

[ScottyB]

Rolling is still relevant because higher-level creatures would use up more of the HD pool. Sleep already affects few creatures as it is. It could have an area-wide effect and not affect more creatures, so its size/range benefits are negligible.

[Mort]

Stinking Cloud, Cloud of Bewilderment. I expected that predictable response. They are not the same. The AoE stays there and you have to go in it to be affected. Cloud of Bewilderment's range is so small as well, making it ... rather limited. Stinking Cloud is DAZE which can be countered by anyone with a clarity pot.

They REALLY cannot compare. Confusion n Fear are good examples of mass disable spells.