"Racism" and "Speciesism" (?)

[TheMacPanther]

I don't see why it's inconcevable to be anti racism and pro murder. In fact I am far more for indiscriminate killings and less racially motivated culling.

[Seanzie]

Its a game, nobody is dying, people still have personalities over the internet though. It's extremely different. I mean I'm not telling you what I believe is right, and what you believe is wrong, We all have opinions, and mine is just different I suppose! :)

[Big Orc Man]

Racial hatreds are a bedrock of Forgotten Realms.

[Divine Intervention]

As BOM say's IRL and IG are nothing alike.  Humans generally dislike elves because they are arrogant, live much longer and have an air of superiority.  The opposite is true for elves views of humans.  IRL everyone is the same.

[chezcaliente]

1) I agree that there is plenty of tension between the various races in the Forgotten Realms. Simultaneously, there are also places in FR where there is not. Silverymoon is a prime example (humans, elves and dwarves live there in harmony). And hello. Half-elves.

The most distinct racial hatreds occur where favoured alignment differs radically: elves vs. drow, dwarves vs. duergar, gnomes/halflings vs. kobolds/goblins.

We're also missing a fair bit of complexity here. Here's two examples:

Moon elves are broadly considered quite tolerant, and are commonly found in human cities, and travelling the lands enjoying the company of all races. Sun elves are much more isolationist.

Moon elves find the diversity of Faerun's races to be intoxicating and forever surprising, and they especially value the insights of other races because they often think of things no elf would ever consider.

Shield dwarves are broadly considered to come from one of two attitudes: The Hidden (traditionalists who prefer to live apart with other dwarves in mountain strongholds) and Wanderers (those who make their life travelling in non-dwarven lands). Even the dwarf/elf rivalry some people seem to think is common is probably only common among the Hidden:

"Despite centures of squabbling with elves and half-elves, shield dwarves have always managed to put aside their differences with the Tel-quessir in the face of outside threats."

2) The Players in a PnP game are exceptional people. Broadly they do not represent the "common" people of their race, and are therefore less likely to represent their common traits, and why as a DM I'm fairly accepting of player's character ideas. This is a game after all, and people should feel free to enjoy their character's story.

The problem we have on a PW, is that there are just so many exceptional people in the setting. So seeing a few more who represent the common attitudes of their people makes things a bit more interesting.

Tl;dr version:

Reminding people that "rights" do not exist in FR and that many races are quite isolationist from a racial perspective makes sense. Simultaneously however, nearly all of the lore in the Forgotten Realms allows for many exceptions or interpretations of racial characteristics. So if you wish to be a tolerant PC, there is plenty of lore that backs you up. There's no need to resort to contemporary humanist thought.

[Thou tun'st this World]

Its a game, nobody is dying, people still have personalities over the internet though.

But they're not people, they're characters. Made-up, fictional characters. Not people.

[The Old Hack]

I think I see Seanzie's point. We may all have different sensitive spots and some people are hit harder by certain things than others. It is unfair to call Seanzie pro-murder, it would be more reasonable to say that he has less trouble swallowing killing as a story device than racism. And there is really nothing wrong with that. What it means is that when we employ various more extreme story devices such as slavery, torture and, yes, racism, we should be aware that sometimes people may be upset and respect their right to OOCly inform us, "Whoa, can we back up a little? I am having trouble dealing with this and am not having fun any more."

And as Wafflecone says, it always helps to show class when dealing with these matters. The more aware you stay of the fact that you are trying to tell a cooperative story with other people and not trying to 'win' or 'dominate' a game, the less likely you are to inadvertently hit buttons and upset people you play with. Or, short form: Remember you are playing with real people. Respect their right to have fun, too.

[Howlando]

Its a game, nobody is dying, people still have personalities over the internet though. It's extremely different. I mean I'm not telling you what I believe is right, and what you believe is wrong, We all have opinions, and mine is just different I suppose! :)

Your opinions are not just different, they are wrong.

[Howlando]

If the idea of a dwarf hating a goblin just for being a goblin or a drow an elf or a human a gnome bothers you on an OOC level, this is simply not appropriate for EFU.

Certainly some things we can be sensitive about. The Old Hack is right that some things we should be aware might be "hot button" issues... I can imagine, as an example, that our inclusion of narcotics is something some players would like to OOC'ly steer away from. But being OOC'ly disturbed by the fact that the different species of EFU don't get along or some players might roleplay characters with prejudice in this way is to me a fairly clear sign that EFU is not right for you.

[Jayde Moon]

If it helps, just look at them as fans of different football (or basketball, or soccer, or baseball) teams.

Some get along alright with others, some have rivalries going on and take every chance they can to get a good dig in, and some will shank you if you wear the wrong colors.  Oh, wait, that's gangbangers.

Anyway, see?  Now it isn't racism.  It's sports!  Everybody loves sports!

[Seanzie]

Well, I never specified what my thought of Racism is. In my opinion, a dwarf hating a goblin because he is a goblin would not bother me.  But some of the things people might say as their character to other characters would. I understand if you well know that my opinions aren't different but in fact wrong all together. I just believe strongly in the fact that racism isn't right.

As wrong, or incorrect my opinion may be it's mine and I'll stick with it, I do not believe that because you disagree with me or think my opinion is plain wrong, that efu isn't right for me. I am not going to let that stop me from playing either.

I could go into examples at how other things effect other players, even though they know it is just a game, and not real life. But I will end as this.

People have different opinions, and in my opinion, I am not right nor wrong. Just different.

[Rincewind1]

It may be a good moment for either community as a whole, or just DM team, to discuss "lines and veils" of EfU again, though I myself have found no problem with them.

What are "lines and veils"? Term coined by many RPG systems, it's quite a simple thing - an agreement between Game Master and the players, about what topics shall be excluded from the game at all [for example, crimes of sexual nature in criminal - based games], while "veils" are themes that will only be suggested, without very graphical descriptions [for example - violent murder, or rape scenes].

Of course, from what I have seen, EfU is a very mature community, so we did not have much problems here, and the only "veil" there is, is on sexual content. But it may be a good idea to wrap it all up again, perhaps.


As for racism - hm. It's a bit of a problem that I have with DnD in general - unlike Warhammer, or for computer gaming example, Arcanum, racism was never a big part in DnD, and if anything, it was "Good guys hating on kobolds" form of racism. Part of the problem is, that well, DnD was made as a simple system, in which orc was supposed to be a LOTR style minion of evil, and you did not think of an orc as someone with family, no - just another grunt for Big Bad. The "good" races are usually just united against a common threat of beforementioned Big Bad, so racism does not take as much of a place. Of course, in later settings (Dark Sun, Ravenloft) racial problems started to feature, but sadly - FR really wasn't one of them. I'd suggest a draft of a guide to interracial interactions.

[Barber]

How does this work as a quick and dirty guide?

Humans often hate elves for being arrogant, distant and for looking  different.

Humans often hate dwarves for being foreign, odd, living too long and being culturally different.

Elves often hate humans for being impatient, greedy, shortsighted and harming nature.

Everyone often hates halflings for the reputation of being dishonest.

Elves hate halforcs for being, half orcs, and half orcs return the feeling for elves, being elves.  Pretty much everyone else hates half orcs, for being half orcs too.

Half elves are often the subject of racism by both elves and humans, for being seen as the other race, or a mixed abomination.

There is no special hatred between dwarfs and elves, besides scuffles over preserving nature.  This isn't Middle Earth.  There are cultural disagreements, but it's nothing like the ill feelings often held between elves and humans.

Dwarfs and gnomes often don't get along, for reasons no one above four feet will ever understand.  Probably something to do with smelling farts all day long.  And turnips, that is a part of it too.

Halflings often don't like the other races, for being too freaking tall.

[Keeper of the White Wyrm]

Anyone remember in EFU there was this speech about forbidding the kobolds and goblins to even vote?

THEY ARE PEOPLE TOO

[Big Orc Man]

Seanzie, some opinions are wrong.

"In my opinion, sugar cures cavities."

Wrong.