Where have all the Bad Men Gone?

[DcShoes]

Heylo, I'm a noob here on this server so dont yell at me too much please...

But from what I see is there are good points on both side, but it all comes down too this..What More rewarding in the end?

A player makes a good/neutral and he/she is able too quest, group up with so many guilds/groups, raid and RP in Mistlocke

Now, for a Bad/chaotic villein, there is few places he/she can go too to be able too pass the time during the slow times, few quests he can go too, few if any shops he can shop at,and can not join and of the normal DM events that I've seen arise.

And for a player too dare this challenge, They are now a big target for all those well founded groups/players that hunt down bad players and villeins...Though I agree with most of ya, all it will take is one player with a vision (and good RP) to make this happen! and it could become a very good bad group...But the way I still see it...
it still isn't rewarding enough to lure any players TO become evil yet and maybe that's what can be done too fix it and maybe we might see more evil.

*Shrugs* Just my humble opinion though.

[Valo56]

I've gone ahead and started my next concept. Will it fill the gap for evil and be awesome? I don't know. Anyone looking to join and help, feel free to PM me or talk to me on IRC.

[The Beggar]

1.

Villains get bored and make new PCs.

Players, not villains, get bored. Lack of goals or purpose. See Characterization thread.

2.

As a perennial villain PC I honestly have to blame DM factions.

Nope. See 1.

3.

The problem is the lack of PC actions to make stories.

Boom.

[Random_White_Guy]

No, Beggar. Villains and antagonists get bored. PC's don't get bored because they can hang out in Mistlocke interacting, they can go on quests, and they can go to events ran by DMs around the city. They can visit merchants. If your characterization thread somehow solves the problem of "Talking to the Stew-Shoppe Wall" then I'm all for it Beggar. But PC's don't get bored. Antagonists do.

While it keeps getting raised I understand it is the focus of the player to make these changes and pursuits, no one is debating that It's why I put it in "General Discussion" not "Suggestions". However PC factions were once the massive fabric of EFU that worked as supplements. As Caddies mentioned the Shining Hammer made waves. I think the biggest thing is people look at the countless amounts of people that the Brotherhood had and think that is the "Staple". A PC faction can be successful with four or five dedicated PC's if they are willing to take risks.

[Mort]

The message coming from is that's boring once you are exiled (not so much a complaint on villains as you can be a villain and work within the village). You can be exiled and still work with a DM faction, hence still have allies.

So what's the issue?

 - Are exiles too lightly given?
 - De-centralization ( having multiple cities to fragment even further our playerbase and undo what EFU:M attempted to fix from EFU:A).
 - DM faction too stricts? (this one is really wtf to me since I think they allow for a lot of freedom!).
 - Player giving fledgling antagonists a chance? This one is a two edged sword, since organizing bounties, using sendings, talking about the antagonist is what gives them their infamy (which is good!), but also what gives them their death.
 - Less boredom? Thrill/risk is what stave off boredom. It's also a double edged sword. Being a villain that everyone ignores is equally boring as being the villain that everyone hunts.

If you define a villain as someone who antagonizes everyone, then I think you have to adapt, that role might no longer have its place with a smaller playerbase and you'll need to be smarter on how you approach or reach it. Besides all the villains I have seen on EFU, usually were alone with 2-3 others at most, sometimes with 5-6 if they were really lucky/or successful and that group's interaction is what gave them interest in play, but it generally took a LONG time to be formed (if it wasn't formed from OOC shenanigans), and the relationship formed without OOC shenanigans are the ones that generate interest since they are unpredictable or seem genuine between the characters.

Anyway, I'm not sure what constructive criticism or discussion comes from this topic. The Original post had a rather melancholic tune.

[The Boom King]

I think everything is fine, but I will say as someone who played in the Muster, that exiles are given a lot! Now generally, when they're given out, those who recieve them are given a task to earn their citizenship back, but still, the exiles are loosed pretty easy. Maybe the new Mayor will have something to say about that?

[shadesofblack]

I agree that exiles are given out a bit too easily. This would be fine in EFUA, where an exile could find refuge in the Docks or the Gobsquat. As it stands, Old Stones is the only immediate place that an exile can find refuge, which doesn't always fit. As RuinedDesire pointed out, exile often means game over. It shouldn't be this way, but at least for me and my character, being exiled meant that I was virtually separated from the playerbase, questing, etc. Completing a task such as "bring the head of Mistlocke enemy A" becomes all but impossible without access to supplies and allies.

Considering the heavy repercussions of being exiled, I think we should be more reluctant to hand them out.

[A Case Of Rapiers]

I don't see it. Exile is for major things, assault gets you a beating. In some cases PCs have been exiled because they ran from the Muster so as not to get fined, or beat...a penalty far less severe than exile. If the players of these PCs were so concerned that exile meant boredom then they perhaps could have chosen another course of action other than open resistance.

From everything I've seen PCs (unless they're murdered someone) get at least a second chance, and in some cases a third. Also, some PCs who have been exiled have done very well afterwards, such as Axom, Boris and Mastro. The difference? These PCs had charisma, and attracted people to their side.

[The Beggar]

Mort - "that role might no longer have its place with a smaller playerbase and you'll need to be smarter on how you approach or reach it."

Nailed it.

Don't change a thing. It's a solid set up as is for the smaller player base you are working with.

[Howlando]

I barely skimmed this thread but I do want to emphasize the point that EFU:M is designed for a smaller playerbase. This is appropriate because there are less people playing NWN these days, but of course there's still tons of fun to be had. Think of EFU:M as a more intimate setting almost in the model of a PnP campaign.

As far as faction villainy goes, our intent (and perhaps it's failing flat, as it really is hard to keep DMs active) was to have intensive temporary villainous groups (whether player or DM in origin) being appropriately supported for a limited duration (the course of a plot, perhaps) rather than trying to build big cumbersome villainish major factions. This was always my favored model both as a player and DM; personally it always seemed more fresh and interesting.

[Arch Rogue]

I really fail to see being Exiled as an issue...annoying at times, surely, but as some kind of unsurpassable impediment? No, just no.

[xXCrystal_Rose]

For the last few months I've been active on a self imposed exile (well, except for when she enters Mistlocke to challenge competitors to the arena to maintain her reputation). It's not the exile that makes open villainy boring. It's the lack of anything to do other than clobber people. Plot and character progression basically hits a brick wall when you're no longer part of Mistlocke. That's my take on it, but bear in mind I am a real junkie for stories and development more than lame pvp stuff. Creating things.

[Arch Rogue]

Many of EFU's greatest villains were Exiled or existed in a similarly-removed manner, and all of them plotted well enough. You can still accomplish plots and storylines while Exiled, especially if you make good use of spies and middlemen.

[Knight Of Pentacles]

What I don't get is why the people who complain about there not being enough villains don't make villains?  

WOAH?!

[VanillaPudding]

Exile was never a problem. I also don't think factions are a problem, as you shouldn't join them if your character's goals won't be bolstered by that factions own agenda or policies somehow.

- De-centralization ( having multiple cities to fragment even further our playerbase and undo what EFU:M attempted to fix from EFU:A).

I didn't personally notice any effect from this idea that has been mentioned numerous times since the setting change. The main area is about the same size (Zigg / Mistlocke), and the rest really did not change excluding the criminal "haven" being some tunnels rather than the docks. The only effect I actually noticed was a direct statement saying that the staff did not like the idea of Sis Liman being built up as it might separate the player base.

I'd honestly say that a lot of this idea that villains can't succeed now or are having trouble would oddly be crushed with a simple area design change or two. A superior way to access Old Stones (yes, we all know there are a couple of ways) and possibly a small that would act as some sort of neutral travelling ground between Old Stones and Mistlocke. Something to "soften" the transition between the two areas somehow.