Sorcerer Balance

[One_With_Nature]

I don't know if theres something in the works for sorcerers or anything but i thought i would bring this up as every class seems to have been worked on in some way, and sorcerers still remain one of the weakest mechanically and in most aspects (Skill points/Class skills, HP, Saves, Low number of spells/harder to access tier 4+).

I know there was some talk before of Bloodline perks which would certainly be an interesting addition, something to add some flavour and a slight boost and reward remaining pure sorcerer would be nice to see.

I also remember there was a sorcerer only quest that could potentially reward some nice items but was limited to a certain number of times much like the wizard only book gathering quest, it would be nice to see the return of that if its not already about and i have just yet to discover it.

(Before anyone says about Bloodmage, yes it is a possibility for sorcerers and is possible to make said sorcerer extremely powerful but its not like many players will ever get to play a bloodmage and shouldn't be the only path a sorcerer should have to aim for)

[MirrorMask]

I agree that the sorcerer class is unerpowered in comparison to the wizard.  In tabletop, the sorcerer's advantage was a lot more spells daily, but with the nwn ability to rest ever half hour, it hardly matters and the sorcerer isn't even something to compare to the wizard in power.
 
Sorcerer definitely needs something.

[Brimstone Sermon]

Playing a sorcerer, I'd say that the biggest drawback is lack of flexibility. They can be hugely strong but only if you concentrate on one tactic to the exclusion of all else. That's why most sorcs are either summoners because summons are always handy, or built for PVP crushing or buffs. I went with having a few utility spells, and relying on potions more than I would with a Wizard. The inflexibility is especially noticable when you can't load up a different sort of spell for enemies immune to your normal stuff. For example Enchanter vs Undead, Fire sorc vs Wild Orcs or meleemage in a situation where it's not a good idea to get up close on the enemy.

More spellslot loot is good, but it only serves to make a PC powerful in the same limited manner. You can't remove sorcerer gear to use situational items after casting the spell, or you lose an available spell. Unlike other casters, it's a hard choice between spells or defence. What sorcerers need is more options. Outside spellslots, CHA is of little use to them either as they have few SP, no class skills that work off it and they don't have perks to boost their social abilities. A Squire Fighter's more easily built to be persuasive. A wizard's Skill Points gives him more options for if he runs out of spells to still contribute.

An idea I had was for a Sorcerous Power Focus akin to a summoning focus. A sorcerer could use this to attune himself to a particular element for a couple of hours and deal the relevant sort of damage. It would make theme sorcs less horribly vulnerable to one sort of immunity. There's consumables that do this already but they are rare. Also, as spellslot loot has the problems mentioned, perhaps more X/day items that are Sorc Only  and UMD-proof. These would let you effectively cast more spells, although they'd not take into account Caster Level or 2 spells a round from Haste.

As OWN mentions, some sort of background, bloodline or perk would be cool concentrating on giving people more options to play with. Much like the rogue perks have done in helping concepts ranging from combat goons to researchers. Currently there are a couple of sorc concepts that work really well, but others that fall flat because they're useless against a lot, don't have the skillpoints etc.  I reckon Perks like rogues have, because that means they stay if the PC dies and it doesn't make L8 for sorcs even more a case of finally taking a level in Badass. Things that either separate them more from Wizards by making them more worldly, give them ways to make up for having few spells to choose from, or that let them use their Charisma or other skills to better effect. Because an individual PC has to specialise in a small set of spells, there's few general boosts that would help them out as a whole other than raising their HP or spellslots.

Some sketchy ideas are below. Let's not drag the thread off topic though discussing whether we like each others' perk ideas or not. We've seen the DMs are more than capable of creating suitable implementations, we can leave it up to them to weed out the unworkable/OP/weak stuff.

[hide="Possible Sorc Perks"]
Martial Mage
Before you fully commanded your powers, you were trained in the arts of violence. Even after turning to arcane talents, you keep yourself in shape better than your peers.
L5:+5 Discipline, +5 Taunt, -5 Spellcraft -5 Lore +1 Fort
L8:+1 AB, 2/+4 DR, +2 Con

Shaman
A true vessel of the spirits, yours is not the way of the effete wizard, but the thorny path of the tribal shaman.
L5: Trackless Step, Weapon Proficiency: Druid, +4 Heal, +1 Fort
L8: Animals do not attack you, +15% movement in wilds.

Unnatural Charm
Your inborn magic isn't only good for throwing spells about. A more subtle projection of it makes people rather more willing to agree to your deals.
L5: +2 Appraise/Persuade/Bluff, Player tool: Charm Person 1/day.
L8: +3 Appraise/Persuade/Bluff, bonuses shared with Merchant Lord.

Arcane Instability
As well as your conventional workings of the weave, you are able to convert the energy in one of your spells into a chaotic bolt of magic.
L5: Player Tool. Your next spell will instead deal a damage of a random type to the target chosen based on the level of the spell cast and your Caster Level. -1 Spell saves.
L8: Bonus to caster level for Spell Resistance checks.
This would mean that regardless of the spell loadout or enemy, you'd always have a means to deal some damage to them like a Wizard can by choosing offence spells that work. For example Enchanters could hurt undead. I'm assuming it's possible due to the Frostmage draughts etc.

Spellslinging Scoundrel
You're a slippery, lonely character, and your magic is used to similarly devious ends.
L5: +3 Hide, Move Silent, Bluff. -Summoning Points
L8: +1 AB, +1d6 Sneak Attack, +2 Hide/move Silent.
  -Summoning points to stop it being abused terribly by the old summon, stealth fight by proxy trick.

Inexhaustible Arcana
Even in the toughest, most gruelling fights, you can always muster up that bit more power to see yourself through.
L5: +1 L1 Spell Slots, OOC Unlimited use/day item for all cantrips.
L8: +2 L1 Spell Slots, OOC unlimited use/day Magic Missile (1) item.[/hide]

[The Boom King]

I always thought sorcerors should have raw natural arcane power. Just slightly more effective than a wizard's standard spell.
 
 
Unstable Bloodcaster
 
Your sorceror's blood literally burns with magic. Your magical abilities pack an extra punch, but at great expense to your health.
 
Pure Sorceror Only.
 
Automatically Extends defensive spells.
Automatically Empowers offensive spells.
-2 Constituion
 
I'm not really great with spellcasters, and won't claim to fully understand the mechanics of it, but if a perk like this seems OP, keep in mind sorcerors only get the knowledge of a handfull of spells. Unlike the wizard who can potentially get every spell there is.

[derfo]

There's been things in the works.

[Random_White_Guy]

One word: Bloodmage.

[SN]

Sorcs are totally OP.

[One_With_Nature]

Bloodmage is hardly something thats easily achieveable by any sorcerer, we have what like two in the history of EFU.

Having played many sorcerers i agree with you SN that they can be powerful but the same could be said of any class that reaches level 8 + , honestly before you hit level 8 as a sorcerer you're really are at a dissadvantage to most classes.

[Anon]

Sorcerers aren't really weak in my opinion and are a low difficulty class ie barbarian sorceror being the two low difficulty classes.

In RP the charisma is useful and i'll just leave it at that.

Of course new content is always fun.

There are obvious disadvantages that wizards have versus sorcerers in many situations. It's largely situational and subjective in my opinion.

Cheers, bye.

(Maybe rogue is in there as the basic class category as well, i forget: edit)

[WildPirate13]

Sorcs are highly over rated with nerfs in place.

[MrGrendel]

In tabletop, the sorcerer's advantage was a lot more spells daily, but with the nwn ability to rest ever half hour, it hardly matters

I'm sure that half hour thing could be tweaked. >_>

[Wild Card]

I definitely would like to see blood line perks for Sorcerors as it would allow players to give their characters more flavor. What if these perks could give players access to unique spells such as for instance a sorceror whose ancestery is from one of the elemental planes would be able to use elemental spells that wouldn't otherwise be available. Stuff like this would make playing a Sorceror on EFU awesome indeed

[Lenthis]

http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54568
http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55494So the forum has links to other areas where sorc buffs were mentioned

[Nihm]

These would work like the Fighter backgrounds. Some have enhanced summoning that would start working as soon as the background was selected, most bonuses would start at level five and increase again at level seven. Improved Familiars just means higher level versions of the familiar if that type is granted - able to function more like an Animal Companion. Earlier Spells may be easier to do than adding sorceror-only spells while still achieving a bloodline feel. Much like some cleric domains, it’d allow that spell to cast at one tier lower. Otherwise, an undroppable tool that grants use/day of those spells might work more easily. Most are spells a sorceror would rarely otherwise choose, but seem to suit the bloodline.
 
Please dont comment just to say these are too powerful, they are just rough ideas.  The ancestral blood manifesting also means they might have some visible weirdness and unlikeable personality traits.  A forked tongue in the case of the Reptile for instance.
 
Red Dragonblood : Typically greedy, violent, and favoring combat enhancement and fire evocation spells. Adds one to strength and five fire resistance at level five, an additional one and five at seven.
 
Djinni Ancestor : Typically swarthy, dark and mystical. Favors electricity or fire spells and conjuring. Summons Air or Fire elementals one tier higher. Plus three to lore and spellcraft at five, another two to each at seven. Earlier Spell : Teleport
 
Devilblood : Typically likes to organize and manipulate people, usually favors Enchantment and Conjuration. Summons devils one tier higher. Plus three to Bluff and Persuade at five, upped at seven. Imp familiar is improved.
 
Feyblood : typically restless and mischevious, favoring illusions. Bonuses to Tumble and movement speed at level Five and seven. Earlier Spells : Displacement and Sphere of Invisibility
 
Shadowsouled : Shadows are summoned one tier higher. Significant bonuses to Hide and Move Silently at five and seven. Earlier spells : Lesser Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Conjuration
 
Product of Unspeakable Family Practices : Becomes immune to Negative Energy Burst at level five. Floating skull is improved. Earlier Spells : Negative Energy Burst and Animate Dead.
 
Reptile Blood : A bonus to poison and reflex saves at five, upped at seven. The snake familiar is improved.
 
Celestial Blood : Predisposed toward aiding others and changing the world for the better. Bonuses to Healing, Persuade, and save versus Fear at five and seven. Loses half the xp others do when casting Remove Curse. Earlier Spells : Clarity, Remove Curse, Remove Blindness.

[Veiled]

The bloodline aspect to sorcerers is something that I have always liked. Though because of the special nature perhaps they should be application only?