Frustrated

[noobliette]

I think most points have been covered here already regarding the difficulty of that specific quest, and that story, character and goals should be prioritised over loot in order to enjoy EfU.

What I do find problematic in these discussions though is those sections of our community who seem to think that everyone should be able to achieve the mastery of NWN mechanics that is required to survive EfU / PvP. This is simply just not possible for everyone.

For me, its a bit like playing pool: I can -see- the shot I should take to sink the next ball, I understand the physics involved, I just can't physically execute it. Translate that to NWN: I know what potions/spells would help me theoretically, but when push comes to shove I am never clear-headed enough to remember to hit those quick slots when I have the chance or I'm simply too slow. Add a little lag and its already over. This is fine by me, and I enjoy this game - I just want those who are mechanically proficient to realise that not everyone is able to achieve it!

[Apocalypse Nigh]

EFU caters to all concepts. Yes, it -is- easier to play a mechanically powerful concept. But I've played mechanically deficient ones before.

You don't need to be a badass with a greataxe to succeed.

[Decimate_The_Weak]

Everytime I see a bastard sword I cringe on the inside and swallow all the pennies in my piggy bank like a poor and starving pig.

[Caddies]

I think most points have been covered here already regarding the difficulty of that specific quest, and that story, character and goals should be prioritised over loot in order to enjoy EfU.

What I do find problematic in these discussions though is those sections of our community who seem to think that everyone should be able to achieve the mastery of NWN mechanics that is required to survive EfU / PvP. This is simply just not possible for everyone.

For me, its a bit like playing pool: I can -see- the shot I should take to sink the next ball, I understand the physics involved, I just can't physically execute it. Translate that to NWN: I know what potions/spells would help me theoretically, but when push comes to shove I am never clear-headed enough to remember to hit those quick slots when I have the chance or I'm simply too slow. Add a little lag and its already over. This is fine by me, and I enjoy this game - I just want those who are mechanically proficient to realise that not everyone is able to achieve it!

I disagree. This is little more than a self-fulfilling defeatist mentality.

What you say is of course true in the beginning, but there isn't some invisible wall only certain people are destined to run into while others progress.

When I was new to EFU and NWN in general I lost every fight I was in. I went through alot of characters. Yet over time, and because I never stopped embracing conflict (because it was tense, fun, immersive), I learnt both the mechanical knowledge and the ability to apply it with increasing confidence in the chaos and adrenaline of the PvP context.

You say you know the mechanics, but you will never be competent in PvP (and by extension, lots of RP situations) or hectic PvE because you hesitate when it matters -- is that because phantom gods of NWN have decreed you will suffer defeat in fights or because you don't yet have the experience needed to prosper in them?

I think you should eschew being superstitious and instead be realistic about the matter; you don't fail because you're predestined to fail, you fail because you don't possess the experience required not to.

All you need to do is practice more, it is that simple. I don't mean go and gank people or spend hours training on some arena server. Simply make characters that rock the boat or help other characters rock the boat and not only will you have a better time on EFU, you'll eventually master the game.

[xxWhisperingWindsxx]

I disagree. This is little more than a self-fulfilling defeatist mentality.

What you say is of course true in the beginning, but there isn't some invisible wall only certain people are destined to run into while others progress.

When I was new to EFU and NWN in general I lost every fight I was in. I went through alot of characters. Yet over time, and because I never stopped embracing conflict (because it was tense, fun, immersive), I learnt both the mechanical knowledge and the ability to apply it with increasing confidence in the chaos and adrenaline of the PvP context.

You say you know the mechanics, but you will never be competent in PvP (and by extension, lots of RP situations) or hectic PvE because you hesitate when it matters -- is that because phantom gods of NWN have decreed you will suffer defeat in fights or because you don't yet have the experience needed to prosper in them?

I think you should eschew being superstitious and instead be realistic about the matter; you don't fail because you're predestined to fail, you fail because you don't possess the experience required not to.

All you need to do is practice more, it is that simple. I don't mean go and gank people or spend hours training on some arena server. Simply make characters that rock the boat or help other characters rock the boat and not only will you have a better time on EFU, you'll eventually master the game.

I respectfully disagree.  I've been playing some form of RPGs for 20 years.  15 of that console, 5 on PC (of which the majority of that has been EfU).  Frankly, I suck mechanically.  This is not defeatist, it is simple truth.  I've never been spectacular at anything that requires good hand-eye coordination (and anything that requires split-second eye-hand coordination I fail miserably and end up flaring up my CTS).  And almost all console games require that.  While PC games don't all require eye-hand coordination, there is a level of mechanical skill that some people achieve that other people never will.

There's also the ability to see a strategy that some people inherently have and others do not.  There's the sheer "battle twitch" instinct, that while a small portion of that can perhaps be learned, it is still an instinctual thing that some people have and some don't.

That being said, I still enjoy the games, and in particular EfU.  Yes, I get frustrated.  Yes, I at times frustrate the hell out of my party.  But I still come back for more.  Why? Because IMO, EfU offers more than just simple mechanical gaming.  There's the scripted quests, there's the DM quests, there's the environment, there's the RP, and there's the players.  It's all combined to make a place that is unique.

One of the things that helped lessen my frustration over the years was to quit comparing notes, so to speak.  There will always be someone out there that has more "stuff" than I have.  And by the same token, there will always be someone who has less stuff.  I enjoy the game for what it is and for the entertainment it can provide me.

If there's someone you want to compete against, compete against yourself.  Find goals that stretch your abilities a bit, and you'll learn and grow.  And yes, you will get better mechanically.  You may or may not ever be a mechanical superstar.  That's okay.  Stretch your RP abilities, stretch your mechanical abilities, stretch your "fear factor" abilities, stretch your concept abilities.  Those sorts of things get noticed too.  

Most of all ... make it enjoyable for you.

[shadesofblack]

It's not so much that people can't be competent, but more so that there are usually other people that are better (in terms of PVP). People will have better reflexes, faster "battle twitch" or shorter reaction times as said above, calmer nerves, and so on. Yes, practice will help, but to say that with practice everyone can be on the same level is silly.

It's like a sport; you can say that anyone can learn to play basketball, but who is going to be able to hold Kobe Bryant one-on-one? EfU has pros that have mastered this game, and to say that everyone can, or should, be on that level is just not realistic, nor conducive to what's going on here IMHO.

[Valo56]

Mechanics are one thing, common sense and logic is another.

Figure out the "why" of things and everything soon falls into place.

Heading down dead orc trail? Why is it called that? Because orcs are there!

Lots of spellcasting nearby but youc an't see who it is? INVIS GANK! WARD UP!

Strange, glowing glyphs on the floor? No, it isn't just there because it looks cool, shit might blow up if you step on it.

Play smart, and learn your mechanics, and you'll be a pro. Keeping cool in a fight can be tough, though..

[Pandip]

I think I'll have to agree with Caddies on the fact that there is a pretty substantial amount of NWN mechanics that can be taught and learned, and that any insistence otherwise feels more like defeatist attitude than an inability to learn. Back when I first started EfU, I was baffled by the thought that IE was a shitty feat and I could be expected to hit ~30 AC without having to use it. But now I charge into the front of the group at low levels with enough confidence in my mechanical knowledge that I feel that save for a pretty big mistake (or an intentional roleplay one), I can hold my own at the whim of the RNG.

Point being, ask around. People are willing to help. Dropping a line like "I want to make x class that doesn't mechanically suck, can someone give me the low down?" is easy and will get you a few responses from knowledgeable people willing to help.

[Caddies]

It's not so much that people can't be competent, but more so that there are usually other people that are better (in terms of PVP). People will have better reflexes, faster "battle twitch" or shorter reaction times as said above, calmer nerves, and so on. Yes, practice will help, but to say that with practice everyone can be on the same level is silly.

It's like a sport; you can say that anyone can learn to play basketball, but who is going to be able to hold Kobe Bryant one-on-one? EfU has pros that have mastered this game, and to say that everyone can, or should, be on that level is just not realistic, nor conducive to what's going on here IMHO.

Likening EFU to basketball is absurd.

PvPing on EFU requires two fingers on one hand. Literally.

The reflexes, intuitions and strategems are all learned and aren't tied to genetics or physical capabilities at all unless you're blind or semi-paralyzed in both hands.

[shadesofblack]

Obviously I am not comparing the physical aspect of sports to NWN. However the game is very nuanced and each person will have a certain peak of capability as with any game, as evidenced by players who've played for a long time yet still have varying skill levels. This is way off-topic by now though, sorry.

[noobliette]

Having played NWN for at least 8 years, including several on EfU, I think I've had enough experience to know that I'm not gonna get much better considering my casual play style. It's not to say that I couldn't get better if I worked really hard at it, its that I know I won't (the same with my ability to play pool really!).

To assume that people will treat their gaming like a career and "work at it" I think is slightly too high an expectation.

As I said, I enjoy EfU as it is. I just don't think everyone should be expected to reach the same level of PvP and frenetic PvE mechanical capabilities as some of our more committed and/or talented players.

[Valo56]

The expectation is whatever you set for yourself. No one really expects anything from other players except that they obey the rules. Beyond that they don't care how skilled someone else is.

Some people will play the game casually, hopping on for events, doing some quest, and perhaps joining a faction. They don't work at it, they just play, and odds are they aren't even that great at it, but who cares?

Others play a bit more seriously, and though it's still just a game of course, they go out and try to shake things up. They don't hop on for events, they make the events, they change, make and destroy factions, and so on and so forth. They work at it. Someone who makes a thread like this wants to work at it, wants to get better.

So work at it, everyone has to just endure through the "noob" phase until they get comfortable with things. In a few months/years, you'll look back at all the difficult situations you were in that were stressful at the time, and probably laugh.. I know I do at least. :P

Have a plan. Most characters, or at least mine, have some secret weapon, some ace in the hole, something they can pull out when absolutely necessary to turn the tide of battle. If you don't have a plan, run like hell. If you can't run... good luck.

[gab1]

Drink potions fight

If you see you are "injured" run

Do what you think your character would do, the speed of things make it more tasking but you can compensate by being more liberal with your consumables. You can guesstimate hits before you die... again if you are injured, you might die.

[SkillFocuspwn]

as noobliette quite rightly said, it's all about the playstyle. If you've played EfU for 15 years and still aren't good, that's probably because you're not throwing yourself into situations that require you to be good! It's a steep and harsh learning curve but all it takes is leaping into it and each character that dies because you messed up in PvP you initiated will make you more likely to win the next one!

Just remember it's a game and it's no biggy if you die trying, just take from the experience and try to make things exciting for everyone again and eventually somewhere down the line you'll have a PC people remember with the same nostalgic fondness as Orgeribbit or Ortred.

[One_With_Nature]

Also if you've played efu for 15 years, you're either not there in the head of your have access to time travel of some sort.