Marksman Fighter Perk - Rapid Reload at Level 5

Started by Crow, April 02, 2021, 07:34:39 AM

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Crow

Currently the marksman fighter perk's benefits are this:
Level 1
    +3 Spot
    +3 Listen
Level 5
    Spawn a bundle of magical bolts each rest
Level 8
    +2 Dexterity

I'd like to suggest adding Rapid Reload as a bonus feat at level 5. While this doesn't benefit them until level 6 where they'll normally have to pick it up to be granted their second attack while using a crossbow, I feel like this is an unnecessary feat tax for an already relatively niche perk. The most obvious comparison is the crossbow fighter's twin that uses a longbow, but the main thing that sets it apart aside from their critical properties is that the latter can use rapid shot while the former can't while still effectively spending the same amount of feats on their archery just to make sure that they're able to attack twice per round like any other fighter or similar at that level of BAB.

Poolson

I think if they could get the feat at 5 alongside the bundle of magic bolts per reset, it'd help a lot.

Dredi

Maybe throw it up there as a perk feat selectable by Rogue as well!

More Crossbow Love.

Bacon_Cheese_Burger

+2 dex- This is already really powerfull.
And dont forget heavy crossbows pack a punch compared to a longbow. Plus there are +1ab heavy crossbows out there.

Old Guard

Fighters get TONS of feats, I don't think it's really an issue to commit a feat to your concept.

Poolson

Quote from: Bacon_Cheese_Burger on April 03, 2021, 02:23:24 PM
+2 dex- This is already really powerfull.
And dont forget heavy crossbows pack a punch compared to a longbow. Plus there are +1ab heavy crossbows out there.

1D10 without mighty and without strength and a half is just a bastard sword+2 (weapon spec) + 1 ammunition (sometimes higher, but exceedingly rare), or an inferior Halberd or Heavy Flail. I'd understand this a lot more if it was something like rapid shot (which crossbows cannot benefit from, further weakening their value) but all this feat does is allow you to make use of your 1:1 BAB. It doesn't seem to be much to me besides a QOL bonus.

That +1 AB crossbow would probably be more useful for a ranged Rogue, since they don't rely on mighty to do their damage, just sneak attacks and the AB to land the shots.

Bacon_Cheese_Burger

I will say, i do not understand why crossbows only get 1 attack. But still the perk is very powerfull.
Once that is said i would love to see more crossbow users ig.

Crow

Quote from: Old Guard on April 03, 2021, 03:53:33 PM
Fighters get TONS of feats, I don't think it's really an issue to commit a feat to your concept.

While it's true that it isn't a huge deal in the long run, eating one feat loss to remove a negative penalty that only applies to this specific weapon type and nothing else is kinda weird for a fighter perk built around using it in the first place. Keep in mind, there are multiple other fighter perks that already provide a bonus feat at level 5.  If I can get Dodge, Disarm, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Spec: Unarmed, and Cleave all at the same level with different perks I'm not sure that Rapid Reload is all that overpowering an inclusion. Outside of maybe wanting to save good ammo by only using full BAB attacks (although it would be cool if Rapid Reload was a toggle so I could actually do this), I genuinely cannot imagine any other scenario where I wouldn't always have to take this feat for a crossbow fighter. No other ranged weapon in the game has this requirement and can freely take a different feat of their choosing instead, while still benefiting from being able to use Rapid Shot which crossbows are already locked out of as well. If I use a crossbow, I will always be down a feat compared to any other ranged character.

Quote from: Bacon_Cheese_Burger on April 03, 2021, 02:23:24 PM
+2 dex- This is already really powerfull.
And dont forget heavy crossbows pack a punch compared to a longbow. Plus there are +1ab heavy crossbows out there.
I agree that it's strong. In spite of the various penalties to ranged in NWN, I'd never really consider AB to be the ultimate issue with a character based around the weapons available. Having said that, it's also important to keep in mind that the Sharpshooter variant that uses Shortbows/Longbows is essentially identical in power in terms of what the perk grants you without the inherent weaknesses associated with using a crossbow instead. Here's Sharpshooter:
Level 1
+3 Spot
+3 Listen
Level 5
Spawn a bundle of magical arrows each rest
Level 8
+2 Dexterity

The key difference in power is more of a matter of what equipment is available in the module and their active fighter perk abilities. Mighty is pretty prevalent on bows so it won't really do as much, while 2d8 massive criticals is pretty good for a crossbow even if neither of them stack. Even then, massive criticals is pretty common on crossbows as well, more critical hits more often is their niche after all. That said, there's a reason crossbow loot is often so much better than the other ranged options, it's because they're locked behind Rapid Reload and out of Rapid Shot so they're allowed stronger bases to work from in order to compensate.  As much as I might like to see about Rapid Reload being removed as a requirement completely, this would only really be a quality of life change for specialists, people that are already basing their concept around being able to use these weapons effectively.