Make multiclass app only (+ Swashbuckler comments)

[Pandip]

Multi-classes feel like the biggest reason why pure classes can't have nice things. "We could give you this, but what about the multi-class?" And so the cool features of a class are pushed higher, made less accessible, given further restrictions... but a player who is inclined towards power gaming is always going to find a way.

A few examples of this:

• I love playing Ranger, but it's often hard to justify taking one past 6.
• I have played a pure Rogue, but even with a perk it is functionally useless against anything immune to sneaks and usually performs better as a Fighter/Rogue save for niche circumstances.
• The prevalence of 2 levels of a BAB class and 8 levels of Bard (or the opposite) was so frequent in COR that it functionally became a meme.

NWN is already an obtuse game that's difficult to approach. Multi-class builds  are frustratingly obfuscated by veteran players who hoard their powerful builds. And in spite of the inevitable deluge of cries stating "roleplay is more important than build!" and "good characters will be rewarded!" the simple reality is that nobody gets brownie points for playing a mechanically bad character. This is a tough server with a lot of intricacies; I don't think we need to add elaborate multi-class builds to that list of intricacies.

To demonstrate my point, I am now playing a pure Swashbuckler, and I am struggling to understand why I shouldn't have multi-classed into a Rogue. I think it's telling that there are so few pure Swashbucklers in the module right now. Presumably, the argument is that I will turn 9 and have access to Feint (which is undoubtedly a cool ability), but I don't even think that brings me to parity with a Swash/Rogue. In fact, presently at level 7, I am significantly worse than said multi-class and will not even reach the point of maybe being equal with one until the distant, far off, fantasy future of level 9.

Swash/Rogue has:

• More skills
• Perk!
• Better saves
• Sneak Attack
• Evasion
• Uncanny Dodge earlier (not having this feels dreadful on a pure Swash)
• UMD wand access (huge, considering the potion limits)

I'm not saying that every class and perk and feature should be equally balanced with the next. That's absurd and boring. But at the very least I think we shouldn't encourage arguably exploitative builds being vastly more powerful than more generic counterparts. Limiting multiclasses to apps gives DMs the freedom to stop faffing around worrying about what the next power builder comes up with for their very immersive halfling, Glorbus Sludgedrinker, and instead lets them focus on making the classes feel cool and unique on their own merits.

thanks I love you guys SOI is great bye.

[1dboy]

I don't know if moving multiclass into app only is the answer because right now the playing field is around 6-7 on every single character, and gold levels aren't quite normalized yet. I also don't like this, because there are times where multiclass is represented for your character's progression (A swahbuckler learning a few more tricks as a rogue, or a wizard diving into the druidic ways to be more in tune with nature, etc) but there is always the 'Well i'll pick sorcerers 2 for wands and not really roleplay it' types. 

Probably what should be considered are perks. Swashbuckler right now massively suffers from no perks, so there's genuinely no point to level it beyond three. Monks could also benefit from perks too, which have been sorely neglected over the almost twenty years this server has been around.  There's also a lot of perks that are basically stat-sticks, ie, they only give flat bonuses and are mostly chosen for benefits. But I do like how barbarian perks are- I think these are the undoubtedly the best perks in the server right now, for how much variety they offer ( though some could be reworked in my opinion, just to help with that variety play.)

At the end of the day, I get the stipulation that multiclassing should be hindered, and it would definitely level the playing field for everyone. But, I would argue for waiting a bit more, and seeing how things normalize in the setting first before drastic decisions are made.

If you feel like multiclassing, go ahead. If you don't, remain pure and rock it.  End of the day, we play to have fun, and if you're not having fun, then change it up.

[VanillaPudding]

I don't agree at all.

Ignoring the main problem (Swashbucklers need a little  MORE from being pure.) and trying to solve it by nerfing other things isn't the solution.

A fighter 4 Rogue 4 has better saves, more utility, more feats, and weapon spec (which counters the +2 damage from int mod).  People aren't playing this right now however because Swashbuckler is new and shiny.

"I love playing Ranger, but it's often hard to justify taking one past 6." - It's really not. A pure AB class with +3 AB / Damage against their FEs is really nice. They have more skill points on efu natively, plus even more in this chapter. At best you'll gain 1 more AC from class tumble and some flanking damage. They already have divine utility and there are way more clerics this chapter due to the removal of gated relics.

"I have played a pure Rogue, but even with a perk it is functionally useless against anything immune to sneaks and usually performs better as a Fighter/Rogue save for niche circumstances." -  There really aren't that many sneak attack immune creatures in the world. People just generally suck a playing rogue ....like a rogue. Flank, use your utility, pick your fights with stealth, etc.

"The prevalence of 2 levels of a BAB class and 8 levels of Bard (or the opposite) was so frequent in COR that it functionally became a meme." - Level 10 was probably too easy to reach in COR, but that is quite obviously not the case this chapter and I doubt it will be even after everything is balanced / adjusted and players get more used to the world. Kind of a pointless argument if there aren't a ton of level 10s all over the place.


"Multi-classes feel like the biggest reason why pure classes can't have nice things." - There is really no foundation to this statement. There is a large amount of static loot that states pure only, or don't use if you have X classes.

At the end of the day multiclassing is fun, has pros and cons,  and allows people more freedom to enjoy the game world. This feels like one of those silly arguments to try and make rogues be as strong as pure fighters but also enjoy their tools and tricks as well.