Monk improvements

[derfo]

I think it's also generally desired they are sub-par, considering that monks are meant to be somewhat uncommon, and they are like, naked and punching things, so they should really lack in some ways in comparison to armored berserker with big sword

Also combine this with all the pretty insane monk specific bonuses Garem stated, and they seem pretty powerful and such

[Sr.N]

Monks gets a ton of extra feats already.

Are you sure their AC is that low? A fighter with splint mail + large shield and DEX 12 has AC 19. A monk with WIS 14, DEX 16, Tumble 5 and +1 Monk AC has AC 17. Not much of a difference.

But realize that monks has an extra attack, similar to dual wielding. Compare them with a dual wielding class, like rangers. Dex 16, Studded Leather. AC 16. The monk has better AC, lower HP, but a few more extra feats.

Monks is the only class that have IKD at level 6 and for free! Fighters can have that at level 8, and paladins/barbarians/rangers can get it only at 9. That's a huge advantage.

I don't think monks are intended to be ubber tanks, even though they can be when fully buffed, but are supposed to have a supportive role in a party, with well rounded stats, which they are already.

If you find trouble avoiding getting hit, you can still get the Expertise feat.

[Letsplayforfun]

Besides, monks are not warrior classes. They can be put to other uses.

I'd go with poison immuity at lvl 6 or 7 since they won't get to lvl 11, but that's about it.

[Egon the Monkey]

Well, considering that on other servers and the OC, monks get easy access to robes with AC or DR added, and on EfU, other than gloves, there is very little monk gear, and only one set of robes I've seen with any defensive power. Much like the "ranger shop", a "monk shop" selling some +AC robes, Monk trinkets etc at reasonable prices would fix that.

Possibly more common monk gear with balancing drawbacks. Say a set of robes with -1 Wisdom, but +2 AC. That would be effectively +1 AC as it would knock off 1 from the Monk AC Bonus. It would also lower the DC of Stunning Fist. The trade would be offensive power for defensive power.
Robes with 2/- physical DR, 10% Fire vulnerability?

Since the balance is buffs, maybe no mechanical changes and common 1/day Monk gear or good charge level monk gear? Robes or gloves with 1/day Owl's Wisdom (1) for a boost in a pinch?

Basically, monks bite it a lot in my experience/ If you buff them up they rock, but you need to think to prep Owls, Grace etc, and most things rock buffed anyway.

[Snoteye]

I have half a mind to just lock this; while we encourage suggestions (and especially discussions about them), that monks should be unfairly balanced compared to other classes at this point is simply absurd. And we don't want monks to be next month's fighter/rogues, either, as derflaro pointed out.

[RIPnogarD]

Everybody has his or her own outlook on monks and each DM has his or her idea what being a monk consists of. Without a good idea of what the DM’s here qualify as monk it’s hard to say which (if any) bonus feats would be best. I do agree something would be nice as canon monks are set to be mediocre fighters at lower levels catch up and become about as good as fighters and barbarians at mid levels and don’t mess with them even a little bit at upper levels. Being that a PC in EFU of double digits is considered damn near epic I would agree the class needs a touch of help. From what I have gathered while playing monks on EFU they are to be considered by book karate types that need to learn their new techniques for each level. They are not to be considered [COLOR="Blue"]street fighters[/COLOR].


Personally I think instead of adding two or three new techniques to the class maybe loosening up on the reigns a bit would be nice. There are literally hundreds of different martial arts forms out there today. From your typical karate and judo to Jeet (Bruce lee) and street fighting. There are weapons only arts and never use a weapon at all arts. Each art has its own style and therefore may or may not use or even want some of the feats that the monk package offers in the first place let alone adding bonuses to poison saves. An art may teach don’t get bit is the best way to not get poisoned thereby adding a feat like dodge would be a much better choice. I’m not knocking anybodies idea here, I’m trying to add to them and just using resist poison and dodge as an example.

What I would love to see done to assist the EFU:A monk would be to at say a lower level 2 through 4 give the player a choice of one bonus feat to pick out of a list of offered feats. Similar to the fighter bonus feat, only use a choice of feats suitable for monks. Maybe use all the feats listed here as the choices but the player only gets to pick one. This would make the monk a bit more unique being that he wouldn’t have all the same feats as every other monk. It would also reflect that there are differing types of arts of which offer things other than what everybody else offers.

Hope this doesn’t get the thread locked; it is only a simple suggestion.

[putrid_plum]

Lately all I see is crying on the forums.  Monks are great, infact fantastic!  If you want them to have mega AC and tank... take the feats and take the time to get the gear.  If you want to deal damage, take those feats and flank.  It is so sad when everyone wants all the classes to be the same and equal.  They are not and for that reason have their own unique qualities.

Monks can be roleplayed in so many ways.  Also on a side not I played a very successful monk on EFU and she had no issues tanking or dealing damage or even had troubles surviving.  With all things, use your brain and imagination!

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

I have played a Monk/Sorcerers, and he effectively tanked trolls with a wimpy group. While we in the end retreated, it was quite a fight.

[derfo]

dead horse so beaten ugh

[Nightshadow]

Any class, if made correctly, can be very strong. Monk especially. Theres two types of classes:
-Classes where when made right are awesome, but when not made right suck supremelly.
-Classes where nomatter what you do, it's tough to be anything higher than above average, but you you will at least be below average.

Monk, Wizard, Druid, Bard and Rogue can be put into the first class (pures, no multiclass, or things get easy, once you multiclass, your character gets put into the second group)
Fighter, Barbarian, Cleric, Sorcerer and Ranger are easy to make. For instance, most fighters choose (at level 1) Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Toughness/Knockdown (cut exotic if not a human).

Anyway, I completelly agree with making monks slightly stronger. I'd say the above suggestion by Vlaid about giving them Expertise at 3 and Improved Expertise at 7 is very reasonable. Many of the monk's abilities are also high level abilities that would be impossible to get on this server because of high xp penalties on death (Which I am not complaining about, I like how we get smacked with a 1/3 xp penalty when we die, makes people think twice about going into harm's way, plus, we die, I'm glad it's not a permadeath whenever we die to some random monster).

But the thinking of 'oh, well, they're really good when they are buffed up' is just not right. OF COURSE they are good when they're buffed up, every class is. It's tough not to be tough to kill when you get a +5 to all your key stats, mage armor, stoneskin, death armor, barkskin, invisibility and haste. When someone starts attacking you like that you had better pull out your own invisibility potion and run like hell, if no invis potion is available, you might as well drop your pack and zip up that bodybag yourself. NO CLASS should have to rely on potions to be in any way useful.

At the same time, as far as roleplay goes, giving monks weaker versions of their higher-level abilities makes sense. Monks believe in achieving perfection over a long period of time, though careful training and meditation. Therefore, it stands to reason that monks would slowly gain their powers, rather than suddenly being able to turn invisible after their 5000th kill, maybe they should be able to turn slightly transparent after their 100th, and as time goes on, they get better at it, similar to Monk Speed and how their unarmed damage, monk ac bonus and flurry of blows improves, until they can turn invisible at whatever level they can turn invisible at.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

To powerful. Mage armor potions cost 40 gold and are easy to get. A feat like Dodge is simple and reasonable to implement.

[dragonfire9000]

How very interesting! I've always found the monk class in EfU and Arabel to be somewhat underpowered. Then again, I am no good whatsoever at playing something that doesn't have forty HP at level three, but that's not my point. It really is hard to get beyond level three/four, for me at least, without dying horribly. The monk loot is not available down at those levels, and for good reason. You don't get a bastard sword with Bonus Feat: Kill Everything at level four, and you shouldn't. However, I think the monk 'does' need a little helping hand. None of this AC boosting stuff, or concealment, no no no. I like the stuff about the little fringe feats, the stuff that ups your saves. The monk has always been amazing for having high will, fortitude, AND reflex saves. Dodge also seems very reasonable, as does resist poison. I liked whoever-it-was's idea of having a list, similar to the Fighter Bonus Feat list, that Monks could access. Perhaps at levels four and eight?

Please do not lock this thread, I think some good stuff is going to come out of it.

And all of you player types? Don't give them a reason to.

[Sr.N]

OF COURSE they are good when they're buffed up, every class is.

Actually, that is not accurate. Every class is good with buffs, but Monks benefit from more buffs than any other class. They can get any +Wis and +Dex for extra AC and Mage armor works for them, where a fighter wouldn't.

I think monks are pretty balanced feat/skill wise. You can't ask a monk to get more extra feats when they already get a bunch. Six feats extra just at level one. And an average of 1 extra feat per level. That is more than a Fighter which may be the second class with more feats in the game.

Sure they don't get to use Bastard Sword, but they get the same damage at level 8. And they have an extra attack similar to dual wield. Now which Fighter can dual wield Bastard Sword with just -2 AB?

You also forget that Monks have Stealth. Fighters don't get stealth and use heavy armor.

Monks are pretty good as they are. Perhaps could use a bit of custom equipment, but there are other classes that are underpowered compared to others, like barbarians and bards.

[RIPnogarD]

I would trade a monks wisdom AC bonus for an enchanted suit of leather any day of the week. And it’s just my opinion but a monk could kick just as well in leather as he could wearing a dang dress (monks robes) that seems to be so popular.

I’m not sure where you guys are getting all your gold, but I wouldn’t spend 40 of my hard earned gold to buy a potion of mage armor. Hell none of my PC’s has ever had more than 400 gold at one time. I’m obviously missing something because I find gold to be worth its weight here, so either share where the Aztec gold treasure trove you are all spending for all your buff potions is or don’t consider buffs in the equation. We're talking basic as~is class features, not buffs.

Lets take a survey and pretend you are trapped in a pit with a single basic Nightriser. Your 3rd level character is alone, completely out of buff potions and cant run away!
Which of these fighter type classes has the least chance of survival at 3rd level with no buff potions, (just basic 3rd levelish gear)?
A) Fighter
B) Paladin
C) Barbarian
D) Ranger
E) Monk
F) Cleric (of a warrior god, not a kiss your face off god.)
G) Druid
H) Bard (with a fighter build and fighter spells)

Whichever of these warrior types wins this survey needs help, plain and simple. Because they should all be able to win this without buffs.

Of these choices I think D, E and H are going to say, “Oh shit!”

My personal opinion would be E due to being on par or worse with the lowest AC, HP, BaB and no spell or song capabilities. (And don’t try telling me that a monks wisdom AC bonus, monk speed, cleave or deflect arrows is going to help this poor monk.)

A free dodge or weapon focus unarmed feat could be the difference of life and death for this monk.

[Goblin Butcher]

Don't make me post another inventory screenshot, gold is not hard to get, consumables are not hard to get. Monks are fine. Dozens of folk can attest to having pages of consumables.

Only a retard (read: low wisdom) monk is going to be without his own personal supply of buffing items, fortunately monks are generally wise fellows. Could it be that you have to be WISE to play a monk successfully? Crazy.

Funny part is, with the fact that there are so few monsters with dispel magic in efu:a and no magic eaters, monks are stronger than ever, as it's always been a case of "dispel to kill" with monks.