Magic weapon on amunition?

[Drakill Tannan]

EDIT: Actuall suggestion:
Magic weapon to add +1 AB to ranged weapons
Flame weapon & darkfire to add "Unlimited amunition 1-4 fire damage" on ranged weapons.


I'd like to suggest magic weapon weapon to have effect on amunition, adding the damage, not the attack, a simple +1 damage doesn't change it to a magnum, but it adds to the damage, making it more usefull, slightly.

Flame weapon/darkfire would be nice too, but considering the advantage of not being at the range of weapons, might be too much. Maybe if it could be changed, so that it added 1d4 fire damage to arrows without the +something modifiers it could be balanced. I can imagine even a sling, doing 2d4 + 1 damage would be quite usefull, it might also allow people to use a ranged weapon without having to be rogues, or to rogues be more effective then fighting constructs/undead.. etc.

So, damage would be:
(not counting mighty darts and axes)

Shuriken 1-3 + 1-4 + 1 = 3-8 average 5 damage.

Sling 1-4 + 1-4 + 1 = 3-9 damage, 5 average damage.

Shortbow 1-6 + 1-4 + 1 = 3-11 damage, 6 average damage.

Longbow/light crossbow 1-8 + 1-4 + 1 = 3-13 damage, average 7.

Heavy crossbow 1-10 + 1-4 + 1 = 3-15 damage, average 8.

So as you can see, the minimun damage reamins pretty low, the maxumun damage isn't really awsome unless we're talking about the heavy crossbow wich can't shoot multiple times a round (unless one gets rapid reload, but even then is 1 less attack per round) i don't think it would be imbalanced, considering you would likely run out of arrows before the spell ends. Think about it, that way we might have more non-rogue archers arround?

[Jayde Moon]

Some info pertinent to (though not necessarily the same thing as) your suggestion can be found here.

[ScottyB]

I'm not 100% sure, but there may be issues with trying to apply temporary properties to stacks of items like arrows.

It would be far easier to add a temporary +1 AB to bows so that they can pierce DR (and of course, are more accurate).

Alternatively, we could have Magic Weapon make bows +1 Mighty, which would just be +1 to damage (and does not beat DR), assuming the user has a positive STR modifier.

[Ommadawn]

I like your suggestions, ScottyB. It always seemed a little unbalanced to me that weapons and even gloves can be enchanted temporarily, yet bows couldn't (making it even harder for a dedicated archer to be useful against creatures like nightrisers for instance).

If something along one of these lines could be implemented, it would be a good thing, IMO.

[VanillaPudding]

I have to agree, letting bows be enchanted to bypass DR (among getting a bonus) would be nice. If Darkfire / flame weapon can be made to give a small amount of fire damage as well that would be awesome. Maybe 1-2 until after level 5 or 6, then 2-4 or something. I've never played an archer but they should at least be viable in all situations, even though their risk is not as great.

[ScottyB]

Damage can only be applied to ammunition, which I just said may be buggy.

Our best bet is to apply bonuses to the bow itself.

Our current options are:
1) AB bonus
2) Mighty
3) AB + Mighty

Like the thread before us, we're just waiting for one of the game-balance-minded DMs to say that this is (or isn't) overpowered, and then it's a relatively easy change to make.

[Egon the Monkey]

Yeah. I agree. Unless you have huge strength (which a dedicated Archer PC isn't likely to have more than 12 of for Mighty bows), carrying a Jergali crossbow and/or +1 darts so you can damage undead and Lycanthropes isn't really feasible.

Mighty Bows are good, but if you've built for archery you won't really get the most out of it I know one 10 STR PC who got a Mighty +3 bow as DM loot and ended up hoarding Strength and Rage pots. THat said, we could do with some Mighty +1 Shortbows. There's 3 mighty Longbows I know of, but I've only seen Mighty Shortbows as DM loot.

Ive recently discovered the joy of poisoning arrows to make a ranged attack more nasty, and also Bless adds On hit: Slay Rakshasa to bolts, so temporary properties on arrows are certainly possible.

I would love to see this. Buffs on arrows wouldn't just open things up for teamwork, they'd make "arcane archer" type builds more workable for any race and any buff class. Battlemages MWing their crossbows and launching flaming bolts in between lightning bolts. Halfling Paladins crushing undead with Bless Weaponed sling shots. Elf Clerics Truestriking Darkfired Purple Crystal Arrows between the eyes of undead (Although, an elf domain Cleric is one of the few decent non-rogue archer builds normally).

[Drakill Tannan]

Adding extra AB would be nice, bu it wouldn't help much with the isseuse, it would likely be good for rogues, but not as good for anything else, because even a +1 mighty +1 AB bow that always hits does mere 2-9 damage, even if it always hits the damage is near insignificant and it's simply better to be fightig melee. Rogues do have great damage with the bow (sneak attack) but lower AB limitg the times they hit, because of this it would benefit rogues much more, others not so much.

But, even if buggy, i'd say the extra damage is the best alterative, flame weapon/ darkfire adds 1/3 of the damage on melee weapons, the bows can't be damage dealers without that attack, except if there was GMW (wich no one will ever spend on an archer).

Another thing that ocurs me is that casting magic weapon on a bow to temporaly add the prpiety of unlimited amunition: arrow +1 on a bow, arrows cost too little for this to be inmbalanced, and you'd have to chose between arrows +1 over whatever special amunition you had, flame weapon could add the propietey "unlimited amunition 1d4 fire damage" to the bow as well.

The problem here being, special damage from amunitions coudln't stack, nor could magic weapon and flame weapon/darkfire, nor could you poison arrows etc. Also it might be too east to say "hey, i'm out of arrows, anyone got magic weapon?" then again arrows are too cheap and no cumbresom at all, so maybe it isn't as imbalanced.. However if this were added, seeing how the effects could stack i would suggest:

Magic weapon add +1 AB to the bow
Flame weapon/Darkfire add the temporal propiety "unlimited amunition, 1d4  fire damage".

But enchating the amunition would be best IMO.

EDIT: removed the +1 damage, 1d4 is pretty good as it is after i tested it.

[SN]

Or just add a custom crafting system of arrows for PC's.

Rangers mostly, IMO.

[Drakill Tannan]

Yes that's what i don't like.

You know, bows are powerfull weapons, in RL there were soldiers who used them. I want to see fighters using bows and crossbows, babrarians usning slings, not only as a secondary weapon, not only rangers and rogues.

[Oskar Maxon]

And... here we go again.

Yes, bows were powerful weapons, however, only when used right.
You didn't go bow vs. axe in close combat. The use it could have seen as such was maybe in an ambush, before you picked up your own sword/axe.

When people speak of for example, the frenchmen being massacred by the english longbowmen, it was due mostly to foolish french tactics. The English lined up in an inverted wedge with knights at the point and archers along the sides. Due to some stupid honour code, the french didn't charge the archers, but the knights, which meant they had to charge through a couple of hundred meters of a deadly rain of arrows, before either having to flee due to being completely massacred by arrows, or due to being so low number when they finally reached the english knights, that they were completely massacred then and there, even if they had been in greater number to begin with.

[Listen in Silence]

Who would've thunk that beating a dead horse long enough would mean something came out of it?

[Drakill Tannan]

Your point being? i never said bows should be usable on melee, that's stupid. But you'll agree an arrow across the chest is as lethal as an axe though the skull. Mind you in NWN unless you have sneak attack or are an AA a mundane bow with mundane arrows does little damage, not comparable with, for example that of a rapier, wich could pretty much be the same thing. The reason being: rapiers can be enchanted, bows cannot.

An arrow that pierces your armor and gets through your chest likely pierced something important, as much as a rapier that does the same does as well.

A sling bulled to the head likely breaks your skull (becuse you know, they weren't pebbles, we're talking about a baseball made of stone) as much as a mace would

A shuriken rips your flesh apart as much as a dagger would.

A crossbow pierces bone with little problem.

Why then, raged weapons, mundane and without sneak attack/magic arrow do so little damage in NWN?

I'm not asking to add the full extent of the enchantments to the bow, melee weapons will still do more damage, plain and simple, my actuall suggestion is buffed bows/slings/crossbows and maybe also darts, shiurikens and throwing axes be be somewhat upgraded with flame weapon/dark fire and magic weapon/greater magic weapon.

I actually tested a halfling slinger, and simulated the tank with a summoned wild boar buffed with mage armor, and the mage with 1d4 fire damage bullets, a +1 sling and a wand of cat's grace. Buffed with this three spells, if the tank manages to hold the enemies for 5 rounds, the slinger can be devastating, a true damage dealer: simply because he had a really high AB and two attacks per round, he was no rogue. But he must be specialised, as he is no good with the shortsword and has a crappy skillset. I made a good raged weapon user, who used a sling and wasn't a rogue. Pretty good hmm?

But he was not all-so mighty either: as i said before he had a crappy skillset and a lame AC. Also if enemies decided to ignore the tank i was in trobule. Also take into account monsters there aren't as powerfull as in EFU:A, so as devastating as he was, probably just very good at EFU:A.

[Oskar Maxon]

I responded to your post and the part being:

You know, bows are powerfull weapons, in RL there were soldiers who used them. I want to see fighters using bows and crossbows, babrarians usning slings, not only as a secondary weapon, not only rangers and rogues.

I would agree that the hp system reflects poorly on damage taken, but that is what we have to live with.

However, the tests you've run still seem to reflect a wish that the ranged weapons would be as effective against someone using a melee weapon.

Also if enemies decided to ignore the tank i was in trobule.

Yes, if the French had ignored the knights and routed put the archers first, the brits would be using the euro instead of the pound. (Exaggerated for shits and giggles.)

as i said before he had a crappy skillset

This points at the important part of efu that is different characters/builds having different roles.

[Drakill Tannan]

I responded to your post and the part being:....I would agree that the hp system reflects poorly on damage taken, but that is what we have to live with.

However, the tests you've run still seem to reflect a wish that the ranged weapons would be as effective against someone using a melee weapon.

Why yes, like thouse wild orc guerilla hunters hide behind the orc warriors and deal damage to frontliners/support alike, so i would like to see archers, crossbowmen and slingers taking down orc warriors from behind the frontliners.

But no, if you thought i was suggesting to make players use a sling in melee range you are wrong. Even if we added +10 slings to the game the slinger is too vulnerable to AoOs and taking into account ranged weapon users usually can't afford carring a heavy armor, and that you can't carry a shield and a bow, they would just be cut down in a matter of rounds.

Yes, if the French had ignored the knights and routed put the archers first, the brits would be using the euro instead of the pound. (Exaggerated for shits and giggles.)

I agree, and that is why archers would remain balanced, they might be more powerfull but they are still very vulnerable.

This points at the important part of efu that is different characters/builds having different roles.

And the crappy skillset makes sure you don't have a healer/trapp handler or something who also is an exelent slinger, just as you can't be a jack of all trades AND a mighty tank/damage dealer.

The "weakenesses" it mentioned are in fact advantages that show that it is nor really imbalanced, IMO.